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A Kurdziel  
#1 Posted : 27 November 2018 11:55:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-46357500

An avoidable tragedy unfolded because an employer did not want to ask questions of its employee’s health and ability to do a job safety.  Why don’t employers ask these questions? Are they embarrassed or just lazy?       

chris.packham  
#2 Posted : 28 November 2018 11:49:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

With the introduction of the new data protection regulations there has been a lot of debate and discussion in the occupational health profession as to how far one can go in attempting to identify any personal health information. It seems that the view is that as a general approach one can ask the prospective new employee if they know of any reasons why they cannot carry out the tasks for which it is proposed that they are employed. It is then up to them to be honest. The prospective employer would then be required to assess the effect of any potential issue declared and whether appropriate adjustments can be made. For this it is important that the prospective employee is made aware of the nature of the work so that they can decide what they need to tell the employer (and that there is a record that this has been done and of the response).

One of the problems is that the prospective employee may not even be aware of a health issue that could affect their ability to carry out the tasks. I have encountered this with skin issues where, when a problem has arisen which is now being investigated, it turns out the the employee did have a problem (e.g. atopy, or unidentified  sensitisation to a chemical in that workplace) that they were not aware of and that was key to the problem arising.

Chris

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A Kurdziel on 28/11/2018(UTC)
KieranD  
#3 Posted : 28 November 2018 12:12:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
KieranD

From the information published in the source to which you referred, the problem appears to have been much more than 'not monitoring-':

Mr Chander had been warned about his "erratic" driving by the company after four crashes in three years, the trial of facts found in September.

The bus company, which is part of Stagecoach group, admitted allowing Mr Chander to work more than 70-hours a week.

'Warning' after 4 crashes in 3 years is surely a very limp response to evidence of very serious risks to passesngers and the public when the driver has impairments that lack control.

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A Kurdziel on 28/11/2018(UTC)
chris.packham  
#4 Posted : 28 November 2018 12:55:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I agree, but the question was about asking the employee about his ability to do the job safely. Monitoring his performance and investigating complaints, particulary lacking in the case in question, is a slightly different topic.

Chris

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A Kurdziel on 28/11/2018(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 28 November 2018 13:25:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

It think this is symptomatic of our failure to grasp “human factors”. We seem more comfortable dealing with systems (eg policy and risk assessment documentation) or equipment rather than people.   Human beings are often seen as the problem so we tend to avoid dealing with them and hope if we have enough paperwork issues will disappear.  We have had a disagreement with a senior manager, who when told that staff might be cutting corners in his department, as a number of them were likely to be up for redundancy dismissed this by saying “They are professionals and can always be expected   to work in an appropriate manner” except experience shows that they are actually human beings and will do human things like cut corners or not tell people about health issues if they feel their livelihoods are at stake. It is the responsibility of managers not just to tick boxes but to actually manage their staff.

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Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC)
nic168  
#6 Posted : 28 November 2018 13:33:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

 This is a very tricky and sensitive area.

Some employers use a pre employment Occupational Health screening service, which may help.Ours does not. Most of my 20  interviewe involved them trying to call my records up on the computer and then asking if  I could emember what I  wrote 6 weeks earlier.

When it is a recognised disability it is quite straightforward- people know what their rights are and what can and should be seen as a reasonable Adjustment.

Where it gets difficult is the "grey" areas of things that might impact on your performance- particulary if you want or need the job.

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A Kurdziel on 28/11/2018(UTC)
KieranD  
#7 Posted : 28 November 2018 13:36:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
KieranD

Interestingly...... there's a gap between the heading of this posting, 'The cost of not monitoring employee's health and work', which is the isssues and the question raised.

When someone repeatedly threatens the lives of others, he or she is not the most appropriate person to rely on for a valid answer to a question about his or her health.

Language of A Kurziel's question complicates matters a little by using the technical exprewsion 'human factors' in  framing the question.  'Human factors' includes errors and violaions which is mre relably and validly defined than the metaphor of 'cutting corners' for failure to accept leadership/management responsbilities.

In the circumstances, what A Kurziel refers to as'acutally managing' staff includes preventing them endangering themselves and/or others by withdrwing them from a very high hazard work situion. 

In the same manner,  today in contact sports e.g. rugby parrticular classes of prima facie injuries require a referee to have a player replaced while he/she has a 'head injury assessment'; risk management controls of this kind were introduced becuase neurosurgeons overcame the loud objections that such measures would \destroy the game as we know it', helped by the scale of compensation claims arising in American football.

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andrewcl on 07/12/2018(UTC)
nic168  
#8 Posted : 28 November 2018 14:38:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

 Kieran, not sure that it is just high risk activites where this is a problem, however lets stick with driving for now.

At the moment, anyone who employees someone to drive has a responsibility to ensure they are fit to do that task.  Its not clear that Stage coach have done this for this driver. Where they have clearly is in ignoring warnings about his fitness to drive- 4 crashes in 3 years and apparently written concerns from others about this man's abilities.

In addition to this they seem to have encouraged ridiculously long working hours, I am sure someoen here can enlighten us as to how driver hours are monitored, as I am sure that 70 driving hours over a 7 day period is not acceptable.

 Back to the Health monitoring business......... I am regularly involved in DSE related activities , One of the routine questions we ask is about sight testing- I am frequently surprised by how few people get their eyes checked regularly unless they are motivated by a voucher or discount from the employer. Most of these people will be engaged in driving for work purposes, yet the only check that is made is via a DSE assessment if they ask for a review or assitance.

To my mind the expense  of a sight test every year or two is well worth the "cost"" of an accident

andrewcl  
#9 Posted : 07 December 2018 11:24:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andrewcl

I think a good example of people not telling their employer about conditions which may or may not affect their ability to do their job safely is the "Harry Clarke" incident in Glasgow on the 22nd December 2014.

The incident itself happened at 1430 in the afternoon.  Harry Clarke passed out while driving a bin lorry along Queen Street in Glasgow.  15 were injured and 6 killed.  The 2 other ops in the cab were unable to intervene to attempt regaining control of the vehicle.

It was decided Police Scotland would investigate - Harry Clarke provided no statement.  All of the options open to the police for prosecution required some form of intent, which he could not have if he was unconscious.  For various reasons, nobody else attempted a prosecution.

There was a distinct lack of satisfaction at the conclusion, so a fatal accident inquiry was held (22nd July 2015).  The format of a fatal accident inquiry means a person can refuse to go (at all), refuse to enter the box, and refuse to answer questions - Incriminating questions can be avoided so the information given can't be relied on in a potential future court case.

Harry Clarke had a medical condition that had led to him becoming unconscious at the wheel of a bus in 2010 - One of the conclusions at the end of this mess was because he didn't tell them about his medical condition (which it is strongly suspected he knew about), the doctors were unable to recommend he inform DVLA.

I have a Word document that I put together when I looked into this (not a huge document) that I can send you if you PM me your email address, as I was concerned when I realised there had been effectively no punishment for the crime.

chris.packham  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2018 13:28:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

What about the heathcare company fined £550,000 plus £36,000 legal costs for not having a sufficient skin health surveillance and management system in place?

Chris

johnmurray  
#11 Posted : 08 December 2018 07:40:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Even if the DVLA had been notified of the 2010 incident the worst that could have happened was a short-term suspension and a return of his licence if there were no further concerns.
But....I feel the extent of non-reporting of medical conditions that will, or may, affect driving ability is very common. Much more common than realised. Have a look at what conditions you need to report...here is an A-Z https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving What is hardly surprising, is that even those got-to-report conditions are rarely reported....
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