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Davidfilce  
#1 Posted : 04 December 2018 15:03:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Davidfilce

Hi all

I am redrafting our accident / incident investigation procedure and have a dilemma:

An employee is using Compnay equipment (a microwave) in his own unpaid lunchtime to heat a bowl of soup. In removing the bowl, he spills some on his hand and burns it.

A first aider attends and treats the employee, and as such puts the event into the accident book.

Should the incident be investigate?

My view is that:

a. It occured on site

b. It occured using Company equipment

c. It is policy that all entries in the accident book are investigated unless it clearly happened outside of work

As such we should investigate it

However, as it was in the employee's own time (unpaid lunch break) and was undertaking a personal task and not a work related task, there is no need to investigate it.

This was not the case, but if the burn resulted in more than 7 days off, would it be RIDDOR reportable? (I assume it would not be a >10 of the body kind of burn)

PH2  
#2 Posted : 04 December 2018 15:37:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

I agree that the accident was not in connection with work and is therefore not RIDDOR reportable.

However, it appears to have arisen whilst using equipment provided by your employer, to an employee, on your employer's premises. As such I think that it certainly warrants investigation (e.g is the microwave working correctly, was the floor slippery, is the microwave too far away from work tops, are  there  instructions for use of microwave, oven gloves  mitts/ towels provided for removing hot items from microwave. etc?)

Edited by user 04 December 2018 15:39:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Kate  
#3 Posted : 04 December 2018 16:01:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I think PH2 is exactly right.

chris42  
#4 Posted : 04 December 2018 17:22:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I disagree, but only very slightly as highlighted below

From HSE web site

RIDDOR only requires you to report accidents if they happen ‘out of or in connection with work’. The fact that there is an accident at work premises does not, in itself, mean that the accident is work-related – the work activity itself must contribute to the accident. An accident is ‘work-related’ if any of the following played a significant role:

  • the way the work was carried out
  • any machinery, plant, substances or equipment used for the work or
  • the condition of the site or premises where the accident happened

So from the description if the spill was just poor handling then not reportable, however if the condition of premises played a role ie the floor had just been mopped a few minutes prior to lunch and was very slippery and the spill was a result of this or similar condition ( trip hazards from storage etc) then it would technically be reportable.

 

As you mention no such workplace condition then I would also say not reportable, but this is why you should do not necessarily a full investigation, but sufficient to determine if any of the above conditions came into play. I just thought I would add this as you seem to be updating procedure / policy. I therefore wanted to show it is not necessarily so black and white when not actually doing a job as such, just access / egress or similar if there is a defect in the premises and it plays a part.

 

Chris

Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 04 December 2018 21:24:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

And within your investigation did they follow the food manufacturers instructions on "nuking" to heat or just do their own thing - full power fifteen minutes and no waiting time.

Does a company (other than catering) actually need microwave cookers for its work or are we confusing work equipment with company provided welfare equipment?

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 04 December 2018 21:24:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

And within your investigation did they follow the food manufacturers instructions on "nuking" to heat or just do their own thing - full power fifteen minutes and no waiting time.

Does a company (other than catering) actually need microwave cookers for its work or are we confusing work equipment with company provided welfare equipment?

WatsonD  
#7 Posted : 05 December 2018 09:06:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

No to RIDDOR, both in terms of work related and unlikely to result in 7 day absence;

but in terms of 'investigation' I would say be proportionate. We are not talking CSI Miami here.A five minute conversation would highlight whether further action is necessary. Note it, file it and (if necessary) act on it.

toe  
#8 Posted : 05 December 2018 22:57:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

  • So from the description if the spill was just poor handling then not reportable, however if the condition of premises played a role ie the floor had just been mopped a few minutes prior to lunch and was very slippery and the spill was a result of this or similar condition ( trip hazards from storage etc) then it would technically be reportable. 

Chris

Technically still may not be reportable - we don't know if the burn was more that 10% of the body or that the IP was off work for more than 7 consecutive days, not including the day of the accident.

chris42  
#9 Posted : 06 December 2018 09:15:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Interesting point Roundtuit. The first two conditions specify work ie “the way the work was carried out” and equipment “used for work” where the third condition does not specify the premises when a work task is carried out, just the premises. therefore, a pot hole on a badly lit path to the car park would be included or a slippery floor. However, as you say the microwave is not for a task, so even if it was to electrocute you then no RIDDOR. I only suggested it might be reportable if the condition of the premises played a significant part.

Toe: yes, I agree we do not know enough to determine, only the OP does from their initial review of the details and any subsequent investigation if deemed appropriate.  

Odd how my post has some of the letters missing! They were there when I copied and pasted from word.

A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 06 December 2018 15:42:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I thought the main question was not whether it was a RIDDOR or not, but whether it was worth investigating. I would say it is worth investigating as it occurred to someone using an employer’s piece of kit, namely a microwave oven.  As with anything in life there is a right way and wrong way of using a microwave and I can why some employers ban them as misuse is very easy.

Issues associated with a microwave at work (which to be honest will probably get much higher level of use than one at home) include electrical safety issues, possibility of leaking radiation and the danger from under cooked food. Another issue, which I have seen is superheating.  It is quite possible in a microwave to heat a liquid to a temperature above its boiling point but for the liquid itself not to actually boil as there is nowhere in the container for bubbles to form. The user then picks the cup out of the microwave, shakes it, causing bubbles to form and instantly it boils over.  Seen at least one nasty accident like that.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Swygart25604 on 08/12/2018(UTC), jwk on 04/01/2019(UTC)
Elfin Davy 09  
#11 Posted : 06 December 2018 16:25:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

..or a simple accident.

I once took a bowl of soup out of a microwave (at work as it happens), and because I was doing something else or talking at the time I wasn't paying it that much attention.  Outcome ?  I caught the bowl on the oven door frame and the soup splashed all over my hand - nasty red mark, a couple of blisters and some pain for a week. 

My fault entirely...  :-(

WatsonD  
#12 Posted : 07 December 2018 09:11:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

I thought the main question was not whether it was a RIDDOR or not, but whether it was worth investigating.

From OP: This was not the case, but if the burn resulted in more than 7 days off,would it be RIDDOR reportable? (I assume it would not be a >10 of the body kind of burn)

ncann88  
#13 Posted : 07 December 2018 11:27:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ncann88

I'm not the most qualified or experience H&S Manager but am I the only one who wouldn't even consider this an issue? There will be an entry into the accident book, ours asks for a desription of how the accdient occured and that would be that. 

Employee cooks own lunch in a microwave and burns his hand a little bit! Do you all provide kettles? I hope you're all aware they get hot and hot water could also do the same thing! Do we need to put signs on microwaves, kettles and toasters (next to the don't stick anything other than bread based products in this appliance sign) now warning people that the stuff that comes out of them might be hot and they might burn themselves so be careful. 

Employees aren't stupid (well ours aren't) so why treat them like they are! 

I can see a headline now 'Kettles removed from office for health and safety reasons' they'll have a field day! 

A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 07 December 2018 11:52:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The problem is even if the accident is solely the fault of the employee there is still an impact on the employer. A first aider had to be taken away from their normal duties, an employee might be unavailable for work: all these things add to costs. Any response should be proportionate but you have to look at the implication of all sorts workplace trends. For example very few business have on site catering and so employees have to go the local shop for their meals.  This means that they might take longer over their lunch breaks. Providing a microwave oven is seen as a simple option but of course this also has, as discussed here, all sorts of implications.

As to employees being adults; well if everybody behaved like a grown-up at all times then we would be living in some sort of (slightly dull) paradise (Sweden?). People are people and they do all sorts of strange things at times.

Swygart25604  
#15 Posted : 10 December 2018 14:55:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Swygart25604

Hi All,

Funnily enough, this thread has appeared at just the right time, as we had a very similar accident in work at the weekend where a shift supervisor was poaching an egg in a cup of water in the works canteen microwave. This is something he has done hundreds of times, both at work and at home. He had done his first egg without any problem, then went for the second one. As he took it out, he stuck a spoon into the cup in order to scoop out the egg and it exploded into his face. What happened here was that the egg had formed a membrane over the water in the cup whilst cooking (acting like a piece of clingfilm over the cup, like when I occasionally microwave stuff) and the spoon then obviously released the mass of pent-up superheated water underneath. A totally freak accident, if ever there was one.

Needless to say, this gave the chap some very nasty burns to his face, for which he is having appropriate treatment. Reading Chris 42's post, this is not a RIDDOR, but a salutary tale as to what can happen with microwaves.

Swygart25604  
#16 Posted : 22 December 2018 10:37:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Swygart25604

Thought I'd just follow up with some observations from the person who had the accident. It would appear that this is not as "freak" as I'd first thought. He posted the details on Facebook and got loads of comments back from people who had seemingly suffered the same fate!

The other thing to note was that although his face was a mess (he said he looked in the mirror immediately afterwards and initially thought it was egg on there, but it was actually his skin peeling off), the application of something called Hydragel (I think that's what it was called; senior moment here) has really sorted out the burns and he was back at work within a week, which was pretty impressive. Fantastic stuff someone has invented there.

Dave5705  
#17 Posted : 27 December 2018 10:38:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

This is not the same thing as providing a kettle. It is not about it being hot. I am fairly sure the 'explosion' would have been the egg itself, the membrane around the white or the yolk can hold the pressure in until disturbed, and then lets go. It is very dangerous to poach eggs in microwaves without piercing them first. This is a well known danger and is mentioned in every instruction manual that comes with a microwave (or should be). Like using metal containers or even some non-metal containers, it's something we should all be aware of before using one. Some things are just a no-no in microwaves, and this is an example.

It just proves that it's not about employees being stupid. I know lots of very intelligent people who would not have thought of this danger, it's about experience or having read/been told about it. Every young person will discover this at some point, and by luck some of them will be at work when they do it.We are not born with the knowledge that eggs explode in microwaves. It is a danger specific to the equipment. The whole point of training is not to tell stupid people not to do stupid things, it's about sharing collected knowledge to stop others making the same mistakes.

If we allow employees to use equipment the company has provided, even in lunchbreaks, where does the duty stand on training or providing instructions them to use it safely? 

andrewjb1  
#18 Posted : 04 January 2019 15:48:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andrewjb1

I have had two simular situations, we had an employee have an accident on site during their own time and because it was their own time and taken directly to hospital we treated them as a member of public on site which then means it was RIDDOR reportable.

In another case we had an employee cut their hand on a glass washing up, our defence in this case was that the glass was not provided by us and was probabably bought in by an employee and washing up was an activity that could have taken place outside of work, it wasnt a workplace activity so we didnt RIDDOR report it.

I think in this case, you need to consider that it was workplace equipment and although it was lunchtime, if it was a paid lunchbreak then its still classed as work time.  If it was in their own time then they would be a member of public onsite. 

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