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Oxford  
#1 Posted : 04 January 2019 10:48:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Oxford

As is probably typical in many organisations who have mobile engineers, we have a problem regarding excessive working hours, simply because overtime is not pre-approved, but is simply recorded after the fact (and then paid without query).

Does anyone have any experience of electronic systems that can record working time (in real time), such that a manager could review the employees' current working hours total, to decide whether the person can be authorised to do another 4 hours (or whatever).

I'd be interested to see how much of an issue this is, and what others are doing to help line managers deal with it.

TIA

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 04 January 2019 11:48:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Not sure about "real time" hours tracking unless your vehicles are fitted with some form of telematics system.

Overtime being paid without approval or query seems very odd given standard T&C's of employment would normally state the rate at which approved overtime would be paid and under what circumstances e.g. after X hours for the week or Y hours for the day (typically the former).

I would hazard a guess that your employment contracts invoke an "opt-out" from the Working Time Directive whose purpose was to limit the potential for excessive hours.

This really needs HR input as it will raise contractual issues regarding pay, hours and impact the companies ability to service appointments.

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A Kurdziel on 04/01/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 04/01/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 04 January 2019 11:48:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Not sure about "real time" hours tracking unless your vehicles are fitted with some form of telematics system.

Overtime being paid without approval or query seems very odd given standard T&C's of employment would normally state the rate at which approved overtime would be paid and under what circumstances e.g. after X hours for the week or Y hours for the day (typically the former).

I would hazard a guess that your employment contracts invoke an "opt-out" from the Working Time Directive whose purpose was to limit the potential for excessive hours.

This really needs HR input as it will raise contractual issues regarding pay, hours and impact the companies ability to service appointments.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 04/01/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 04/01/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 04 January 2019 11:53:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This begs the question what your managers and HR are doing. Surely making sure that staff work the correct number of hours is their responsibility not yours.

H&S job is not picking up everybody else's  management failures
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webstar on 21/01/2019(UTC)
Oxford  
#5 Posted : 04 January 2019 14:06:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Oxford

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

This begs the question what your managers and HR are doing. Surely making sure that staff work the correct number of hours is their responsibility not yours.

H&S job is not picking up everybody else's  management failures

That's a bit of a strange response - I have never ever in my career considered myself  'just an H&S Manager'...we work with the ethos that we are an Operations managment team, with certain specialities to be brought into use as and when.

Your answer wasn't particularly helpful in any way, but thanks anyway

johnmurray  
#6 Posted : 05 January 2019 18:08:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Originally Posted by: Oxford Go to Quoted Post

As is probably typical in many organisations who have mobile engineers, we have a problem regarding excessive working hours, simply because overtime is not pre-approved, but is simply recorded after the fact (and then paid without query).

Does anyone have any experience of electronic systems that can record working time (in real time), such that a manager could review the employees' current working hours total, to decide whether the person can be authorised to do another 4 hours (or whatever).

I'd be interested to see how much of an issue this is, and what others are doing to help line managers deal with it.

TIA

I assume, in my optimism, that you are keeping an accounting of their driving hours and have some company policy about same...especially since between a quarter to a third of all road accidents concern people working/using the roads for working....tired workers don't make good workers, or good drivers.

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jwk on 07/01/2019(UTC), nic168 on 10/01/2019(UTC)
jwk  
#7 Posted : 07 January 2019 11:34:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Hi Oxford,

I have to agree with Andy; whether you consider yourself a member of the Operations Management team or not, keeping track of working hours is a line-management responsibility. There are many electronic systems which will track hours worked, but all they will do is provide management information; its then up to (line) management to use the information in accordance with local procedures.

Good point John M about driving. I'm trying (once again!) to get a Road Risk Policy through the board, and its a hard sell, but if we're going to kill somebody it will probably be on the road,

John

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A Kurdziel on 08/01/2019(UTC)
WatsonD  
#8 Posted : 07 January 2019 13:36:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: Oxford Go to Quoted Post

we are an Operations managment team, with certain specialities to be brought into use as and when.

Statement still stands then. Ask the person on your operations management team whose certain speciality is HR, rather than going on a H&S specific forum.

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A Kurdziel on 08/01/2019(UTC), jwk on 08/01/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC)
toe  
#9 Posted : 07 January 2019 19:02:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I have to disagree with some of the previous posts and advocate that the overall management of working hours is a H&S issue and not a HR issue as some posters have proposed.

The Working Time Regulations have been put into place to prevent employers from forcefully making staff work excessive and unsafe number of hours (although employees can opt out if they wish to work over the recommended weekly limit).  This ultimately leads to a safer workplace. To add, the Regulations have been enacted under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and are regulated by the Health and Safety Executive. So… working hours policy and overall management of working hours is a H&S function which is why the OP was asking for advice. That said, I agree with previous posts, it is the Team/Line Managers responsibility to ensure that the working hours are being managed as per the employer’s policy. But overall responsibility lies with the organisation if an accident occurred and excessive working hours was a contributing factor. An employer knowing staff are working excessive hours with no management or provision to reduce them, is in my book - wilful blindness, especially if driving or conducting safety critical tasks.

Here is my rational. Recently, I came across a report titled ‘working time opt out hours’ that detailed a significant number of staff who were working greater that 60hrs over an average of a 36 week period (this gets complicated as it included sleeping hours). I brought this to the attention of the Directors in which we put in plans to reduce the amount of staff working excessive hours over a period of time, starting with the two staff members who were working an average of 80 hours a week. Our HR and Payroll departments knew about staff working excessive hours but did nothing as they were not thinking about the safety aspect of the job, their only focus was getting the ‘opt out’ forms signed.

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 07 January 2019 19:44:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Whole heartedly disagree - a business defines how many employees are required based upon available hours per employee and hour commitments to complete necessary employment tasks. It is how a growing business defines how it will resource expansion (funding full time employees as opposed to paying overtime to existing staff) and a declining business defines how many employees it willl make redundant when everyone is paid but not actually working standard hours.

Yes H&S considerations have a role to play for employee hours BUT it is only a small part of the calculation especially in those businesses where economic expidiency has new starters contractually "opt-out" thanks in part to the manner in which the directive was written in to UK law.

Coming back to the OP the statement "overtime is just paid" not approved or authorised (and obviously not managed) - H&S do not in my experience normally write contracts of employment that is/was/should be an HR specialist function. Where H&S should be involved is ensuring employment law specialists consider the human behind the number on the excel spreadsheet.

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WatsonD on 08/01/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 08/01/2019(UTC), jwk on 08/01/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC), WatsonD on 08/01/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 08/01/2019(UTC), jwk on 08/01/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 07 January 2019 19:44:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Whole heartedly disagree - a business defines how many employees are required based upon available hours per employee and hour commitments to complete necessary employment tasks. It is how a growing business defines how it will resource expansion (funding full time employees as opposed to paying overtime to existing staff) and a declining business defines how many employees it willl make redundant when everyone is paid but not actually working standard hours.

Yes H&S considerations have a role to play for employee hours BUT it is only a small part of the calculation especially in those businesses where economic expidiency has new starters contractually "opt-out" thanks in part to the manner in which the directive was written in to UK law.

Coming back to the OP the statement "overtime is just paid" not approved or authorised (and obviously not managed) - H&S do not in my experience normally write contracts of employment that is/was/should be an HR specialist function. Where H&S should be involved is ensuring employment law specialists consider the human behind the number on the excel spreadsheet.

thanks 8 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
WatsonD on 08/01/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 08/01/2019(UTC), jwk on 08/01/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC), WatsonD on 08/01/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 08/01/2019(UTC), jwk on 08/01/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC)
toe  
#12 Posted : 08 January 2019 21:22:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I too whole heartedly disagree (well OK your right about most SME). I work in the health and Social Care sector with over 3,000 full time employees and many more sessional workers. We operate on average between 6% and 10% understaffed and it’s for this reason our staff choose to work extra hours. In some areas we simply cannot recruit and the industry has a higher than average attrition rate.

May I take upon your point regarding “overtime is just paid”. In our industry we are legally bound to provide a service, if a member of staff does not turn up for shift or there are staff shortages, we simply cannot leave vulnerable people by themselves resulting in the staff member doing extra hours until shift cover can be arranged or the person may do a double shift to cover the absence. This is normal in our industry and the “overtime is just paid” it’s just the nature of the beast and out of our hands. Managers and HR will let people do as many hours as they wish, because its helpful to the organisation as the shifts are getting covered. However, in these circumstances this is where the H&S people need to act, in which, it’s often a fine balance between keeping operational and being safe at the same time.

Have a think for a moment… it’s common for junior Doctors working in hospital to routinely work excessive hours. Roadies on tour routinely work excessive hours including driving vehicles around the country. Emergency services will routinely work excessive hours. Many managers routinely work excessive hours and often unpaid. To add, a recent initial Government report has identified that the Fire and Rescue Service is under-resourced and struggling to recruit, train and retain staff. The above posters theory is sound but not reflective of many large organisations that have staff routinely working excessive hours and can/will at some point affect the safety of their staff or the public at large.

Organisation must take note when people are routinely working excessive hours (i.e. as described by the OP) and should have provision in place to manage it: - as I see it, this is an operational H&S function and I agree it can be attained with HR input, for example long term interventions such as, better recruiting, pay awards, retention strategy, succession planning etc. To conclude, working time laws fall upon the HSE to regulate and not EL.

 

Ref: - Fire and Rescue Service Inspections 2018/19 (P3) Find report Here.

 

Edited by user 08 January 2019 21:22:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

jwk  
#13 Posted : 09 January 2019 09:39:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Toe,

I think there's maybe a bit of cross-purposes here. It is certainly up to H&S to identify that there is an issue with working time, but I for one, as Head of H&S for a very large NGO (well, technically an FBO) can't actually make anybody reduce their working hours. That's up to line management; H&S can identify and advise, line management can instruct. It's line management's responsibility to manage working patterns,

John

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Bigmac1  
#14 Posted : 09 January 2019 10:19:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

I agree with jwk.

johnmurray  
#15 Posted : 09 January 2019 14:24:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

"

Fatigue results in slower reactions, reduced ability to process information, memory lapses, absent-mindedness, decreased awareness, lack of attention, underestimation of risk, reduced coordination etc. Fatigue can lead to errors and accidents, ill-health and injury, and reduced productivity. It is often a root cause of major accidents e.g. Herald of Free Enterprise, Chernobyl, Texas City, Clapham Junction, Challenger and Exxon Valdez. 

Fatigue has also been implicated in 20% of accidents on major roads and is said to cost the UK £115 - £240 million per year in terms of work accidents alone"

http://www.hse.gov.uk/humanfactors/topics/fatigue.htm
toe  
#16 Posted : 10 January 2019 00:46:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

jwk,

As the Head of H&S for a large organisation also, as you can see from my post at #8, I concluded that staff were working excessive hours in which safety critical tasks were being conducted. As the H&S professional for the organisation I brought this to the attention of the Directorate in which we put in plans to monitor and control the excessive hours worked in conjunction with the HR team, although on some occasions it is still occurring but not as often as it was. Note: this intervention was not 'just left' for line managers to control or indeed not control, this was achieved with top level management commitment and full SMT backing.

Just a quick question, do you know if your staff are working excessive hours?

If the answer is YES and you do nothing about it (because it’s line managements responsibility, as you put it), as a safety professional you may be overlooking a significant business risk, [#13 post].

If the answer is NO, is this something that the safety person within the organisation should know? I think it is, although some people here think it's HR's responsability.

Just something to add that may be of interest, when we identified that staff were working long hours, we introduced a ‘time into shift’ field in our accident/incident database. Although it’s too early to get a full picture and I don’t really know what the early data is telling us, more than two-thirds of our injuries and incident are with staff who are working more than an average of 48 hours a week and most medication errors are occurring where staff are working long hours.  I'm not making any causual relationships at this stage of the data gathering, just stating a fact.

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Dave5705 on 10/01/2019(UTC)
Dave5705  
#17 Posted : 10 January 2019 07:48:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

This begs the question what your managers and HR are doing. Surely making sure that staff work the correct number of hours is their responsibility not yours.

H&S job is not picking up everybody else's  management failures

I agree. As H&S manager, isn't one part of your role to be thinking the things other managers don't have in their considerations, having an awareness that escapes others in their eagerness to produce, in short, playing the critical friend. Once you have made the observation and spotted a potential risk to the organisation, if it's an HR/operations matter (and for me this is) then they should be given the task of solving it, not you.

However, I can fully understand the wish to discover how that might be done operationally or to have some suggestions to put forward. In fact, it can only help to improve your/our performance as H&S advisors if we understand as much as possible about everything we encounter, so if that is your motivation then I can see the good in it too.

They (HR and Operations) will have insights into things that you might be missing, without those you may go armed with suggestions and come away deflated.

I know I'm relatively new to H&S but I'm not new to industry. Remotely, we cannot know what kind inter-departmental relationships exist at your organisation. Some places I have worked are truly homogenous, others are full of differently shaped ivory towers, but in all cases offers of help generally go down well, suggestions of how to do their job do not (unless asked for). Just ask to be part of the solution, and for that, I can understand the wish to be prepared.

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achrn on 10/01/2019(UTC)
nic168  
#18 Posted : 10 January 2019 08:02:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

Oxford, do your engineers have any kind of Lone worker device or tracking device? These can be used to monitor the actaul hours they are out and about.

safety  and repution of the company are the points I would use in raiseing this up the chain, John makes the point that fatigue is known to be a factor in 20% of accidents.

I find it odd that overtime at these sort of levels is just paid- no pre agreement or checking, this is a sysytem that is ripe for exploitation by managers as well as employees- probabaly (hopefully !) not your remit, but is this ever audited financially as I assume they wil be claimimg expenses as well?

WatsonD  
#19 Posted : 10 January 2019 11:32:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

It is interesting to see this debate about whose responsibility it is. Whenyou see it play out on a forum like this I realise how near-sighted an argument it is. Being a H&S forum the argument will always be biased. However, it doesn't matter It is a company issue. HR, finance H&S, operations managers all should have a vested interest for their own reasons, but ultimately that doesn't matter a jot. It is an issue that needs resolving - by ALL interested parties.

Perhaps the working time app you mention could be the answer. Speak to yourIT person (if you have one) it should be relatively simple to programme.However, I think the main thing is that all interested parties sit around a table and come up with a solution together moving forward which benefits the company and all interested parties including the engineers.

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jwk on 10/01/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 11/01/2019(UTC)
jwk  
#20 Posted : 10 January 2019 16:58:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Originally Posted by: toe Go to Quoted Post

jwk,

As the Head of H&S for a large organisation also, as you can see from my post at #8, I concluded that staff were working excessive hours in which safety critical tasks were being conducted. As the H&S professional for the organisation I brought this to the attention of the Directorate in which we put in plans to monitor and control the excessive hours worked in conjunction with the HR team, although on some occasions it is still occurring but not as often as it was. Note: this intervention was not 'just left' for line managers to control or indeed not control, this was achieved with top level management commitment and full SMT backing.

Just a quick question, do you know if your staff are working excessive hours?

If the answer is YES and you do nothing about it (because it’s line managements responsibility, as you put it), as a safety professional you may be overlooking a significant business risk, [#13 post].

If the answer is NO, is this something that the safety person within the organisation should know? I think it is, although some people here think it's HR's responsability.

Just something to add that may be of interest, when we identified that staff were working long hours, we introduced a ‘time into shift’ field in our accident/incident database. Although it’s too early to get a full picture and I don’t really know what the early data is telling us, more than two-thirds of our injuries and incident are with staff who are working more than an average of 48 hours a week and most medication errors are occurring where staff are working long hours.  I'm not making any causual relationships at this stage of the data gathering, just stating a fact.

Toe, I never said I would do nothing about it. What I can't do is issue instruction. I can run campaigns, try and get senior management buy-in, take it to the safety committee, issue guidance and the lot. But I can't tell people to go home or monitor the work-patterns of 4,000 odd people. That's line management's responsibility. If they ignore my advice, reject my campaigns, tell me there are other fish to fry, well, that's up to them. It won't stop me telling them, but I can't make them do it,

John

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A Kurdziel on 14/01/2019(UTC)
Dave5705  
#21 Posted : 11 January 2019 06:35:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: WatsonD Go to Quoted Post

It is interesting to see this debate about whose responsibility it is. When you see it play out on a forum like this I realise how near-sighted an argument it is. Being a H&S forum the argument will always be biased. However, it doesn't matter It is a company issue. HR, finance H&S, operations managers all should have a vested interest for their own reasons, but ultimately that doesn't matter a jot. It is an issue that needs resolving - by ALL interested parties.

I agree, it is everyone's issue and a company issue. But I feel you do still need one person, running a department, to have responsibility for the management of the issue or you run the risk of everyone thinking someone else will look at that and in the end nobody does. Or two people looking at issues in independence, wasting company time. If responsibilities are not clearly defined, it can lead to a poor system of management.

Edited by user 11 January 2019 06:37:24(UTC)  | Reason: tryping error

Dave5705  
#22 Posted : 11 January 2019 09:54:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: toe Go to Quoted Post

I have to disagree with some of the previous posts and advocate that the overall management of working hours is a H&S issue and not a HR issue as some posters have proposed.

The Working Time Regulations have been put into place to prevent employers from forcefully making staff work excessive and unsafe number of hours (although employees can opt out if they wish to work over the recommended weekly limit).  This ultimately leads to a safer workplace. To add, the Regulations have been enacted under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and are regulated by the Health and Safety Executive. So… working hours policy and overall management of working hours is a H&S function which is why the OP was asking for advice. That said, I agree with previous posts, it is the Team/Line Managers responsibility to ensure that the working hours are being managed as per the employer’s policy. But overall responsibility lies with the organisation if an accident occurred and excessive working hours was a contributing factor. An employer knowing staff are working excessive hours with no management or provision to reduce them, is in my book - wilful blindness, especially if driving or conducting safety critical tasks.

Here is my rational. Recently, I came across a report titled ‘working time opt out hours’ that detailed a significant number of staff who were working greater that 60hrs over an average of a 36 week period (this gets complicated as it included sleeping hours). I brought this to the attention of the Directors in which we put in plans to reduce the amount of staff working excessive hours over a period of time, starting with the two staff members who were working an average of 80 hours a week. Our HR and Payroll departments knew about staff working excessive hours but did nothing as they were not thinking about the safety aspect of the job, their only focus was getting the ‘opt out’ forms signed.

Are we not starting to talk bike sheds here?

I think Oxford's OP was indicating that he was taking a view to seeing how the problem could be managed, presumably to provide input to decision making. In the case of the health care sector, it may be that little can be done to solve the immediate staffing problem, but they will have looked at it and concluded that nothing can be done (and recorded their findings) because they are legally bound to provide a service despite that fact that it no doubt breaks their working hours and H&S policies.

I see that as the difference here. Back to the OP, there is an answer to this question, it just hasn't been found yet. Isn't it an H&S function to help decide policy and even terms and conditions when it affects safety (and fatigue will always affect safety), and to provide assistance on solving any issues when asked, but then isn't it the line management's responsibility to ensure that policy is observed, and if it can't be then they should be informing H&S to get assistance, rigour and backing to see if anything can be done to change it. I assume there is regular consultation between H&S and the various departments, where you would ask if there are any issues. Was this raised as part of one of those consultations? In which case isn't everyone doing their job and the system has identified a question which needs resolving. More staff or more time management, but at the moment it is not being controlled, and the baton has been passed to Oxford to solve it because operations either can't or won't. It happens.

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jwk on 11/01/2019(UTC)
WatsonD  
#23 Posted : 11 January 2019 11:32:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: Dave5705 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: WatsonD Go to Quoted Post

It is interesting to see this debate about whose responsibility it is. When you see it play out on a forum like this I realise how near-sighted an argument it is. Being a H&S forum the argument will always be biased. However, it doesn't matter It is a company issue. HR, finance H&S, operations managers all should have a vested interest for their own reasons, but ultimately that doesn't matter a jot. It is an issue that needs resolving - by ALL interested parties.

I agree, it is everyone's issue and a company issue. But I feel you do still need one person, running a department, to have responsibility for the management of the issue or you run the risk of everyone thinking someone else will look at that and in the end nobody does. Or two people looking at issues in independence, wasting company time. If responsibilities are not clearly defined, it can lead to a poor system of management.

True but who gets the day-to-day the management responsibility is an outcome of that initial step. The OP has already identified the issue and now wants to be the catalyst for change -how?  If a H&S bod just sets up and says "I'm worried about hours so I'm banning overtime unless its authorised, heres a new App." Unless you have company buy-in nobody will listen. If nobody listens then it wont get done.

You need a compelling argument.Yes, fatigue is a causal factor in many accidents, but that doesn't mean its a strong enough argument for those who have been ignoring it for years to simply change their practices now. They may argue that its not been a problem before (Elf and Safety gorn mad!), or fatigue is not just caused by work. The engineers themselves may be perfectly happy with the overtime situation and may look at it with suspicion that managment are trying to cut-costs and H&S are just interfering again. Flawed arguments? maybe, but we deal with people for whom H&S is not their specialism or prority surprising as that may seem. So appeal to your colleauges on the finanacial benefits, etc. and then point out how it has the nice side effect of being ethically a feather in the cap for the company.

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jwk on 11/01/2019(UTC)
hilary  
#24 Posted : 11 January 2019 12:50:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

The Working Time Regulations are made under the Terms and Conditions of Employment and the Employment  Rights Act 1996, and not the Health and Safety At Work etc Act 1974.  By all means carry out risk assessments to ascertain if their excessive hours are potentially harmful and present your findings to HR, but given that the Regs are made under HR legislation, I think that HR should be your first port of call.

Edited by user 11 January 2019 12:53:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 11 January 2019 15:06:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

the prosecutions are made under HASAWA - provison 28 "Enforcement" by either the HSE or Local Authority

Still does not make it solely an H&S issue

Roundtuit  
#26 Posted : 11 January 2019 15:06:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

the prosecutions are made under HASAWA - provison 28 "Enforcement" by either the HSE or Local Authority

Still does not make it solely an H&S issue

toe  
#27 Posted : 11 January 2019 16:42:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

How member states embed European legislation into their legal systems can sometimes be complicated.  In the UK, it is the European Communities Act 1972 that allows this, and in this instance, the Working Time Regulations comes under this act and not the Employment Rights Act 1996 (correct me if I am wrong).

I always try to understand the spirit of the law rather that the letter of the law. The Working Time Directive was originally devised, to limit weekly working hours within a reference period, to give compulsory rest breaks for workers and the provision for night shift workers. The original European Directive was 100% developed in the interest of ‘safety’ and nothing else. It is for this reason that enforcement of the ‘Act 1998’ is the responsibility of the HSE.

I agree, this is not solely a H&S issue and that HR Colleagues input is helpful. It is the suggestion that this is a HR issue rather than a H&S issue that I have apprehensions with, including previous post suggestion for example that HR is the first point of call.

To add, in my experience H&S has a greater influence on an organisation than HR do. Working excessive amounts of hours has safety and wellbeing implications therefore, overall organisational management and control of this lies with H&S responsibility.

Edited by user 11 January 2019 16:47:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

toe  
#28 Posted : 13 January 2019 09:19:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ln-iosh-prod-storage/ioshDigitalMagazine/2019/01January/html/index.html (page 8)

A judge has fined a bus company £2.3 M when a bus crashed killing two people. The bus driver had worked 72 hours a week on average for the three weeks prior to the accident. He volunteered for all available shifts and at one point he worked 11 days without a break.  

This case supports my argument that working excessive hours is a H&S issue and hot a direct HR issue. The HR people and front-line management must have known the number of hours this person was working. In my view, there has been a system deficiency to prevent drivers from driving excessive hours in this case. I am sure that if any credible H&S professional was aware of this, he/she would have put a stop to it or brought it to the attention of high-level management.

  

Dave5705  
#29 Posted : 13 January 2019 11:31:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: toe Go to Quoted Post

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ln-iosh-prod-storage/ioshDigitalMagazine/2019/01January/html/index.html (page 8)

A judge has fined a bus company £2.3 M when a bus crashed killing two people. The bus driver had worked 72 hours a week on average for the three weeks prior to the accident. He volunteered for all available shifts and at one point he worked 11 days without a break.  

This case supports my argument that working excessive hours is a H&S issue and hot a direct HR issue. The HR people and front-line management must have known the number of hours this person was working. In my view, there has been a system deficiency to prevent drivers from driving excessive hours in this case. I am sure that if any credible H&S professional was aware of this, he/she would have put a stop to it or brought it to the attention of high-level management.

  

I don't know. Do we know if H&S had done their duty in every way, held regular consultations etc etc. and even knew about the chap in question? Maybe the operations team had simply ignored their duty. It is almost unbelievable that they ignored the warnings, and chose to let this old man with a poor safety history work all those extra hours without considering the risk it posed. It is possible, maybe even probable, that H&S were kept in the dark. How else do you explain them not taking action, that simply doesn't make sense.

Working too many hours is an H&S issue in an advisory and policy sense, no-one is doubting that. But IF operations chose to willfully ignore that advice then it becomes an operations issue.

As WatsonD says, in the case of the OP, the point is moot. In their case H&S is a function within the operations team, operations have the first-hand knowledge that this is happening, so the operations team are responsible and need to sort it out.

I will add before anyone else does that I understand managers and workers can only take advantage or make mistakes if the H&S system lacks rigour, but I do think they (H&S) need the information to work with and the backing of the senior management, if that is not there, or worse is given the blind eye to 'let operations get on with the job' then what are they to do? Sometimes a robust H&S system is proposed but not implemented because the company doesn't allow it, are H&S to blame then?

Edited by user 13 January 2019 11:44:09(UTC)  | Reason: addition

Roundtuit  
#30 Posted : 13 January 2019 12:29:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The bus driver is a very poor example as they had been made aware of concerns about the driver and had even assessed immediately prior to the crash. They failed to act in a timely manner on available information.
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nic168 on 14/01/2019(UTC), nic168 on 14/01/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#31 Posted : 13 January 2019 12:29:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The bus driver is a very poor example as they had been made aware of concerns about the driver and had even assessed immediately prior to the crash. They failed to act in a timely manner on available information.
thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
nic168 on 14/01/2019(UTC), nic168 on 14/01/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#32 Posted : 14 January 2019 10:01:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The issue with the OP was that there seems to have been an assumption that it was upto the H&S function to “fix” the of excess hours problem and that he was looking for some form of standalone technology to this this rather than relying on the usual management systems which I would expect to actually be responsible for this.  A few years ago I was made aware of people working excess hours. (In this case people were visiting remote sites and it was decided that travel to and from the sites was not “working time” and so did not count!) I made the line a manger aware if the issue and informed HR. They came up with a solution (nothing clever just time off in lieu) and the issue was solved.

As an H&S person I raised the issue but I left it for those people running the show to come up with their own workable solutions, rather than trying to impose my own.

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Dave5705 on 14/01/2019(UTC)
achrn  
#33 Posted : 14 January 2019 10:35:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

The issue with the OP was that there seems to have been an assumption that it was upto the H&S function to “fix” the of excess hours problem

The issue with the responders was that there was an assumption that it was intended that H&S fix it. 

The OP just asked if anyone had experience of hours logging systems.  For all any of us know, in that organisation HR are taking the lead but the OP thought to themselves "I wonder if anyone on the forum has experience that I could usefully pass on to HR", and next thing you know they are being lambasted for straying outside a H&S jobsworth's remit.

It's sad (in my opinion) that anyone that even thinks about something outside their primary remit apparently deserves to be shot down in flames.

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Dave5705 on 14/01/2019(UTC), toe on 15/01/2019(UTC)
WatsonD  
#34 Posted : 14 January 2019 11:21:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

The issue with the OP was that there seems to have been an assumption that it was upto the H&S function to “fix” the of excess hours problem

The issue with the responders was that there was an assumption that it was intended that H&S fix it. 

The OP just asked if anyone had experience of hours logging systems.  For all any of us know, in that organisation HR are taking the lead but the OP thought to themselves "I wonder if anyone on the forum has experience that I could usefully pass on to HR", and next thing you know they are being lambasted for straying outside a H&S jobsworth's remit.

It's sad (in my opinion) that anyone that even thinks about something outside their primary remit apparently deserves to be shot down in flames.

Quite right, however, paradoxically, you are annoyed because the responses given above are - in your opinion - outside of the primary remit of the question...

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Dave5705 on 14/01/2019(UTC)
Dave5705  
#35 Posted : 14 January 2019 19:40:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Funny, that's not how I took it. It was fairly clear that Oxford was trying to help solve a problem

Originally Posted by: Oxford Go to Quoted Post
 

I'd be interested to see how much of an issue this is, and what others are doing to help line managers deal with it.

and I'm sure we would all try to do the same given the same scenario. I thought the conversation we were having was directed at the failure to manage the O/T hours by the operations dept, not the attempt to help them by H&S staff. My understanding was that operations had let the O/T situation get out of hand and become so embedded in the culture that they couldn't solve the problem without upsetting the workforce.

However Oxford picked up on it, it's clear that there is an H&S issue and Operations should not have let it get so far down the line. I think that was the point Andy was trying to make. It won't be the first time H&S has been used (blamed) to change working practices 'because we have to, not because we want to you understand.

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A Kurdziel on 15/01/2019(UTC), WatsonD on 16/01/2019(UTC)
Oxford  
#36 Posted : 18 January 2019 14:43:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Oxford

Thanks for all of the responses which make interesting reading...but as WatsonD and achrn point out, my ultimate question was whether anyone had experience of electronic systems to monitor overtime?

To clarify: what I'd be looking for is a system which Line Managers could consult before saying yes to, or asking someone to do, more overtime, and which would show them them how many hours the employee has already worked in that week - so they can make a reasoned decision as to whether allow it or not.

I realise spreadsheets can be used, but for them to work would require them to be completely up to date at all times (and be on an easily acceoble shared drive), which I don't think is realistic if it relies on a human keeping it up to date

johnmurray  
#37 Posted : 20 January 2019 07:07:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

The way your original post was phrased makes it highly likely that you have no idea what hours your employees are working......until afterwards.....which means they could, and probably are, working so many hours that their driving is impaired....

In which case, HSE have a leaflet for your company: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf

"If one of your employees is killed, for example while driving for work, and there is
evidence that serious management failures resulted in a ‘gross breach of a relevant
duty of care’, your company or organisation could be at risk of being prosecuted
under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007"
westonphil  
#38 Posted : 21 January 2019 13:42:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
westonphil

Originally Posted by: Oxford Go to Quoted Post

Thanks for all of the responses which make interesting reading...but as WatsonD and achrn point out, my ultimate question was whether anyone had experience of electronic systems to monitor overtime?

To clarify: what I'd be looking for is a system which Line Managers could consult before saying yes to, or asking someone to do, more overtime, and which would show them them how many hours the employee has already worked in that week - so they can make a reasoned decision as to whether allow it or not.

I realise spreadsheets can be used, but for them to work would require them to be completely up to date at all times (and be on an easily acceoble shared drive), which I don't think is realistic if it relies on a human keeping it up to date

You may wish to have a chat with Tensor ( https://www.tensor.co.uk/ ) and take it from there. There are different providers and services available and so I recommend to explain your challenges to the suppliers and see what they can do for you. My experience of Tensor is that it makes it easier to manage working hours and overtime but it still requires management to do their part.

Regards

Edited by user 21 January 2019 13:44:35(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling error

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