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AndyJB  
#1 Posted : 09 August 2019 14:55:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
AndyJB

Hi all,  Sorry this is another RIDDOR related query and apologies if this has taxed your collective minds before but here goes with the basics.  I'm aware of RIDDOR wording and HSE guidance - I just want your interpretations on the following scenario as to reportability.

Injured person is a non-employee (a child)

Accident is work related

They are taken from the scene directly to hospital

Injury is a 5mm cut on finger.

They've been taken to hospital not for treatment of their injury which was being dealt with by staff but to pacify, imho, the hysterical mother who was causing much more disturbance to everyone else, so staff took the initiative to try and calm things down

They have the wound washed and a Sterisrip applied whilst at hospital

Question - as they didn't go to hospital for treatment to their injury but still had some treatment when there (if you call having a steristrip applied as 'treatment') does this count as reportable under RIDDOR?

Many thanks for your considerations

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 09 August 2019 15:33:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A plaster or steri-strip is NOT hospital treatment for the purposes of RIDDOR

Calming a hysterical mother by sending their child to hospital is also not RIDDOR
thanks 1 user thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 10/02/2020(UTC)
MrBrightside  
#3 Posted : 09 August 2019 16:01:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

I feel I need to ask. How did the child get the work related injury?

thanks 1 user thanked MrBrightside for this useful post.
N Hancock on 24/02/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#4 Posted : 12 August 2019 08:06:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I concur, not RIDDOR reportable. I would count the washing and application of the dressing as an examination, not treatment.

WatsonD  
#5 Posted : 12 August 2019 08:42:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

INDG453 Guidance states:

Work-related accidents involving members of the public or people who are not at work must be reported if a person is injured, and is taken from the scene of the accident to hospital for treatment to that injury. There is no requirement to establish what hospital treatment was actually provided, and no need to report incidents where people are taken to hospital purely as a precaution when no injury is apparent.

An injury was definitely apparent, although in your view just a small cut. Depending on the nature of the injury it may have been necessary to check for further damage, cleaning is not just for examination but prevention of infection, perhaps a tetanus jab was given too?

Without knowing the actual cause of the injury there are possible gaps.

thanks 1 user thanked WatsonD for this useful post.
Keith Hole on 09/02/2020(UTC)
wjp62  
#6 Posted : 13 August 2019 12:25:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wjp62

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf

thanks 2 users thanked wjp62 for this useful post.
stevedm on 14/08/2019(UTC), Keith Hole on 09/02/2020(UTC)
Bigmac1  
#7 Posted : 13 August 2019 12:38:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

Yes reportable

CptBeaky  
#8 Posted : 13 August 2019 12:47:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I stand corrected. I suppose I am letting my own bias get in the way here. But yes I can agree that a strip and wash is a treatment. If what the IP states is accurate then it probably is a waste of RIDDOR time, but that is not ours to decide.

wjp62  
#9 Posted : 13 August 2019 14:01:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wjp62

Roundtuit,

Firstly, can I just say "I'm out of breath reading your response as there's no punctuation" and secondly, no spiders were hurt during my research/writing of the response..   : )

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 13 August 2019 14:10:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

problem with phone entries the breaks by using return vanish
O'Donnell54548  
#11 Posted : 14 August 2019 11:49:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis

O'Donnell54548  
#12 Posted : 14 August 2019 11:53:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
O'Donnell54548

Sorry should have added, taken/sent to hospital for further investigation, blood tests, x rays etc, where the results lead to treatment. YES reportable.

Monopoly  
#13 Posted : 28 January 2020 18:03:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Monopoly

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

jwk  
#14 Posted : 29 January 2020 08:51:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

Dressing a wound is treatment; if the Nurse in the care home is regarded in this case as a first-aider it gets a bit clearer. But bearing in mind that since an injury requiring a visit to hospital should be reported to CQC, and CQC is the regulator for H&S in care establishments, its a bit of a moot point really,

John

Monopoly  
#15 Posted : 09 February 2020 14:49:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Monopoly

Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

Dressing a wound is treatment; if the Nurse in the care home is regarded in this case as a first-aider it gets a bit clearer. But bearing in mind that since an injury requiring a visit to hospital should be reported to CQC, and CQC is the regulator for H&S in care establishments, its a bit of a moot point really,

John


Any accident in a residential care home, whether the IP is a resident or a member of staff, should be reported to the HSE if it qualifies as a RIDDOR.

A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 10 February 2020 09:14:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I HATE RIDDOR

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
RVThompson on 10/02/2020(UTC)
jwk  
#17 Posted : 10 February 2020 14:03:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

Dressing a wound is treatment; if the Nurse in the care home is regarded in this case as a first-aider it gets a bit clearer. But bearing in mind that since an injury requiring a visit to hospital should be reported to CQC, and CQC is the regulator for H&S in care establishments, its a bit of a moot point really,

John


Any accident in a residential care home, whether the IP is a resident or a member of staff, should be reported to the HSE if it qualifies as a RIDDOR.

It gets reported to the Incident Contact Centre, if it's an injury to a service user its CQC who will come knocking in the first instance. They may call in HSE if they need the expertise, but it goes to CQC in the first instance,

John

thanks 1 user thanked jwk for this useful post.
Kate on 13/02/2020(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#18 Posted : 11 February 2020 12:02:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

Isn't the care home scenario a bit of a red herring?

The definition in the RIDDOR guidance is so wide you could drive a coach and horses through it - treatment can be interpreted in any number of ways.  But if all that they did was remove a plaster applied by one of your staff and then put another dressing on it (with or without a steristrip) then I personally wouldn't count that as treatment, its investigation.  However, does it really matter if you report it under RIDDOR anyway?  HSE are not going to prosecute over a 5mm cut to a finger and if you report it you have a bit of a comfort blanket that you have done everything that was reasonable / gone the extra mile?  Finally and probably not very helpfully I think it comes down to your personal view of the incident and also to some extent what is the norm in your industy.

jwk  
#19 Posted : 11 February 2020 13:44:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

Isn't the care home scenario a bit of a red herring?

The definition in the RIDDOR guidance is so wide you could drive a coach and horses through it - treatment can be interpreted in any number of ways.  But if all that they did was remove a plaster applied by one of your staff and then put another dressing on it (with or without a steristrip) then I personally wouldn't count that as treatment, its investigation.  However, does it really matter if you report it under RIDDOR anyway?  HSE are not going to prosecute over a 5mm cut to a finger and if you report it you have a bit of a comfort blanket that you have done everything that was reasonable / gone the extra mile?  Finally and probably not very helpfully I think it comes down to your personal view of the incident and also to some extent what is the norm in your industy.

In the words of the great D.W.A.Y.N.E Love, 'Mebbe yes, mebbe no'. But probably no, it's not a red herring, this is exactly the sort of scenario where RIDDOR gets even more complicated than it usually is. Hospitals are even worse. Consider this: a person attends A&E for an injury to their hand; while awaiting triage they go to the loo, trip over a thoughtlessly positioned porter's trolley and break a leg. They are not 'taken to hospital for treatment' because they are already at hospital... Now this scenario has been determined to be reportable, but it's not in keeping with the wording of the regulation.

Agree that HSE might not be interested in the IP's scenario, but since they wouldn't investigate that doesn't matter. CQC are the enforcer for injuries to service users in health and social care, and they might be interested, depending,

John

thanks 1 user thanked jwk for this useful post.
Kate on 13/02/2020(UTC)
Goggles Goldfish  
#20 Posted : 20 February 2020 16:46:20(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Goggles Goldfish

Yes, reportable.

BigRab  
#21 Posted : 01 March 2020 16:27:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BigRab

Yes, definitely reportable. Anyway where's the harm in reporting?

Invictus  
#22 Posted : 02 March 2020 11:08:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

Dressing a wound is treatment; if the Nurse in the care home is regarded in this case as a first-aider it gets a bit clearer. But bearing in mind that since an injury requiring a visit to hospital should be reported to CQC, and CQC is the regulator for H&S in care establishments, its a bit of a moot point really,

John


Any accident in a residential care home, whether the IP is a resident or a member of staff, should be reported to the HSE if it qualifies as a RIDDOR.

It gets reported to the Incident Contact Centre, if it's an injury to a service user its CQC who will come knocking in the first instance. They may call in HSE if they need the expertise, but it goes to CQC in the first instance,

John


It has to be work related, a resident falling over, missing a chair as they went to site down, found on the floor, is not work related
jwk  
#23 Posted : 02 March 2020 12:06:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

Dressing a wound is treatment; if the Nurse in the care home is regarded in this case as a first-aider it gets a bit clearer. But bearing in mind that since an injury requiring a visit to hospital should be reported to CQC, and CQC is the regulator for H&S in care establishments, its a bit of a moot point really,

John


Any accident in a residential care home, whether the IP is a resident or a member of staff, should be reported to the HSE if it qualifies as a RIDDOR.

It gets reported to the Incident Contact Centre, if it's an injury to a service user its CQC who will come knocking in the first instance. They may call in HSE if they need the expertise, but it goes to CQC in the first instance,

John


It has to be work related, a resident falling over, missing a chair as they went to site down, found on the floor, is not work related

Hi Invictus.

If you look at the example I gave, that would be work-related, 'caused by or arising out of work' is always the first criterion,

John

Edited by user 02 March 2020 12:08:02(UTC)  | Reason: '

Invictus  
#24 Posted : 02 March 2020 12:17:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jwk Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Monopoly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wjp62 Go to Quoted Post

I would say all three criteria were met and as such this would be reportable, nowhere in RIDDOR does it state a plaster/steri-strips wouldn’t be classed as treatment, in fact a Q&A found referring to this very subject states:

"RIDDOR 2013, regulation 5 (a) requires the responsible person to notify the enforcing authority (subject to regulations 14 and 15) ‘Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury, and that person is then taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury’.

HSE response: We asked our Legal Adviser’s Office to advise on the definition of treatment in this context. Their advice is that ‘treatment’ in the RIDDOR context is deliberately broad. As such, it could include a plaster or ointment being applied – so long as that ‘treatment’ took place at a hospital, and was applied, in effect, ‘by the hospital’ insofar as it followed the intervention of a trained medical professional.

Therefore, if a nurse applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, then it would constitute treatment for the purposes of the relevant RIDDOR provision. But if someone was taken to hospital and then sent away
without anything being done to them, but who themselves applied a plaster or ointment at the hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

This is because they would not have been ‘taken to the hospital for treatment’ as the ‘treatment and ‘hospital’ elements would in effect be unrelated.

Similarly if this treatment was applied by a trained medical professional at a GP practice, rather than at a hospital, it would not be RIDDOR reportable.

Examinations and diagnostic tests e.g. x-Rays, blood tests, etc on their own do not constitute ‘treatment’.
http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Questions-about-Reporting-under-RIDDOR.pdf


I think you will find that the definition is in the wording " is taken from the site to hospital for treatment"

If they are sent/taken to hospital to be checked over after recieving first aid or attedance by a paramedic, NOT reportable even if further treatment is administered at A&E. If they are sent/taken to hospital specifically to recieve further treatment, YES it is reportable.  

Care Homes deal with such cases on a regular basis


So, if a resident, let's say in a Care Home, has an accident (deemed work related i.e. being moved from a sofa to a wheel chair by staff). The accident results in a cut to his leg when he knocks it against the footplate. The on site nurse dresses it, however he is taken directly to hospital to get the injury checked in case stitches are needed. 

At the hospital it is decided stitces aren't needed but the wound is redressed. Is this a RIDDOR ?  

Dressing a wound is treatment; if the Nurse in the care home is regarded in this case as a first-aider it gets a bit clearer. But bearing in mind that since an injury requiring a visit to hospital should be reported to CQC, and CQC is the regulator for H&S in care establishments, its a bit of a moot point really,

John


Any accident in a residential care home, whether the IP is a resident or a member of staff, should be reported to the HSE if it qualifies as a RIDDOR.

It gets reported to the Incident Contact Centre, if it's an injury to a service user its CQC who will come knocking in the first instance. They may call in HSE if they need the expertise, but it goes to CQC in the first instance,

John


It has to be work related, a resident falling over, missing a chair as they went to site down, found on the floor, is not work related

Hi Invictus.

If you look at the example I gave, that would be work-related, 'caused by or arising out of work' is always the first criterion,

John


No worries John, I was just pointing out that not everything is reportable and if it is a residential home they don't report to HSE it is normally the local authority even if it is RIDDOR.

Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 02 March 2020 12:33:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Dear SNS - good example of why to avoid quotes

thanks 1 user thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
jwk on 02/03/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#26 Posted : 02 March 2020 12:47:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Quote:

 

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Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

This is why I love quotes

 



thanks 3 users thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
Elfin Davy 09 on 02/03/2020(UTC), Roundtuit on 02/03/2020(UTC), jwk on 02/03/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#27 Posted : 02 March 2020 14:32:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

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Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Particularly when they can be edited by others

Edited by user 02 March 2020 14:34:31(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

thanks 3 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
jwk on 02/03/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 03/03/2020(UTC), Kate on 03/03/2020(UTC)
RVThompson  
#28 Posted : 02 March 2020 15:37:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RVThompson

Sort of reminds me of the room they had in the Science museum (appeared on the cover of On The Level by Quo too).

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