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mattcut  
#1 Posted : 08 October 2019 11:02:48(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mattcut

Working on a project where we need to get our overseas vendors onto a construction site so they can install equipment.

PC is saying all must have CSCS cards. But how can this be achieved as our contractors are not construction workers but technical workers installing their equipment. I know that CSCS only applies to construction, but our PC is very clear on this.

Is there any alternatives or suggestions about going to an alternative route?

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 08 October 2019 11:43:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

It is unfortunate we still have sites that demand a 100% carded workforce

They need to be woken up to the fact that these workers are unlikely to be able to get a CSCS card as their employment is outside of UK construction and the visitors card has rightly been consigned to history.

I take it this installation team was documented in your supply quotation?

https://www.cscs.uk.com/applying-for-cards/withdrawn-cards/visitorcard/

thanks 1 user thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Steve e ashton on 12/10/2019(UTC)
bxuxa  
#3 Posted : 08 October 2019 12:37:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bxuxa

Hi there,

Well, installation is construction activity. Depende of course of the type of installation.

You can use this link to find the best card for you https://www.cscs.uk.com/card-finder/.

Or you can get a labour card (green card) with one-day training.

mattcut  
#4 Posted : 08 October 2019 13:45:32(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mattcut

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

It is unfortunate we still have sites that demand a 100% carded workforce

They need to be woken up to the fact that these workers are unlikely to be able to get a CSCS card as their employment is outside of UK construction and the visitors card has rightly been consigned to history.

I take it this installation team was documented in your supply quotation?

https://www.cscs.uk.com/applying-for-cards/withdrawn-cards/visitorcard/

Its a project that is a first for the UK as well so no UK vendors/suppliers unfortunately.

I still read this section on CSCS site and think

https://www.cscs.uk.com/applying-for-cards/non-construction-related-occupations/

and according to all the cards and the information from CSCS our vendors do not fall into constuction activity. So stuck.............

Edited by user 08 October 2019 13:47:06(UTC)  | Reason: update

thanks 1 user thanked mattcut for this useful post.
Steve e ashton on 12/10/2019(UTC)
jmaclaughlin  
#5 Posted : 08 October 2019 14:16:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jmaclaughlin

Matt there is nothing stopping you getting a Green labourer card.

You need to do a 1 day safety course as a pre requisite. (Usually around £100)

Then book a test around £21, as an Indviual (as opposed as a company.) select labourer for card type/skill and you will see the acceptable pre requiste requirements.

https://www.citb.co.uk/courses-and-qualifications/hse-test-and-cards/card-schemes/

A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 08 October 2019 14:41:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The CSCS card is not a legal requirement. It is just a mechanism that some PC use to ensure “competence” of subcontractors.  I suspect that these vendors will not be happy having to send their guys across a day early to do a course in language they don’t understand, adding extra travel and accommodation costs and they will adjust their bills accordingly.  This might upset the client who might have something to say about this as they (not the PC) are ultimately in charge.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Steve e ashton on 12/10/2019(UTC)
achrn  
#7 Posted : 08 October 2019 15:14:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: mattcut Go to Quoted Post

I still read this section on CSCS site and think

https://www.cscs.uk.com/applying-for-cards/non-construction-related-occupations/

and according to all the cards and the information from CSCS our vendors do not fall into constuction activity. So stuck.............

Yes.  CSCS are completely clear that no-one should be demanding a 100% carded workforce, but some PCs still demand it, presumably because they are too lazy to manage the workforce properly - imposing an inappropriate blanket rule is, after all, easier than implementing appropriate controls.

In addition to the page you've quoted, you could try pointing the PC to https://www.cscs.uk.com/...e-isnt-always-100-right/ which states quite clearly:

"This rigid enforcement of a 100% carded workforce results in legitimate, non-construction related, workers being refused entry to site as they do not hold a card. This indicates a misunderstanding of the scheme and undermines the construction industry’s desire for a fully qualified (not carded) workforce."

You could ask the PC why they are undermining industry efforts for a qualified workforce?

If you have any contact or influence with the client, you could point the client to the same pages.

In reality, however, assuming you want to do the work and want to get paid, you'll probably jump through the pointless stupid hoops the PC imposes.

(FWIW, we have people that don't qualify for any of the cards.  Some of them are serious experts in their field.  We tell the PC that if they want the expertise on site, the expertise is coming without a CSCS card (because I'm not telling these people they need to do a one-day unskilled training course and apply for a 'labourer' card).  So far, they've always found a way.  That might not be available to you, depending where you are at contractually.)

 

thanks 2 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 09/10/2019(UTC), Steve e ashton on 12/10/2019(UTC)
bxuxa  
#8 Posted : 08 October 2019 23:53:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bxuxa

By curiosity, what are they going to install?

What equipment?

TerriCox  
#9 Posted : 09 October 2019 10:08:38(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
TerriCox

We had a new build site where we were undertaking the fit out and we were the PC for the fit out, but the PC for the actual build was also still on site. This made for a partenred complaince on almost everything.

The build PC required CSCS for everything....we did not require CSCS for various fit out roles. We advised the main build PC this was totally impracticable and unenforcable. We ensured ALL workers received the site induction relevant to the areas in which they would be confined and working, risk assessmnets were robust, briefed out and signed up to. Regular checks to ensure MS were complied with.

Result - £11.5m build with 2 minor first aid accidnets on our side and several first aid and lost time on the main build side of things - the same attention they paid to CSCS was not replicated with their site activities or enforcements. 

Point being, CSCS enforcemetn does not make for a safer site -it's the way the site is operated and managed that counts more.

thanks 2 users thanked TerriCox for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 10/10/2019(UTC), Steve e ashton on 12/10/2019(UTC)
Mark-W  
#10 Posted : 09 October 2019 14:56:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

I'm in the same boat. I consult to an FM company. Very occasionaly the instal team get a job on a construction site so I'm required to conduct a quick safety check of our guys. I hold the Gen cert not the constr cert. So checking my guys have the correct PPE and paperwork in place is a relatively short and painless process.

I've never worked on a constr site outside of the military so have ne real experience of it. When I visit site, I undergo the induction and I'm always escorted around.

I hold the visitors card as I have no trade to speak of, I did a carpentry apprenticeship in the 80's but thats not really relevant to now.

So my options are to get the PQP card which means I have to learn all the CDM regs which seems disproportionate to the small amount of time I spend onsite. Or the other option is to refuse the work which isn't really a sensible option.

jmaclaughlin  
#11 Posted : 09 October 2019 15:14:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jmaclaughlin

The actual PQP test is not that difficult, you probably won't get more than 3/4 CDM questions, if you are lucky you wont get any.

If you are unsure, this mock test site is pretty accurate:-

https://www.test-questions.com/cscs-managers-professionals-01.php

bxuxa  
#12 Posted : 09 October 2019 22:22:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bxuxa

Originally Posted by: TerriCox Go to Quoted Post

We had a new build site where we were undertaking the fit out and we were the PC for the fit out, but the PC for the actual build was also still on site. This made for a partenred complaince on almost everything.

The build PC required CSCS for everything....we did not require CSCS for various fit out roles. We advised the main build PC this was totally impracticable and unenforcable. We ensured ALL workers received the site induction relevant to the areas in which they would be confined and working, risk assessmnets were robust, briefed out and signed up to. Regular checks to ensure MS were complied with.

Result - £11.5m build with 2 minor first aid accidnets on our side and several first aid and lost time on the main build side of things - the same attention they paid to CSCS was not replicated with their site activities or enforcements. 

Point being, CSCS enforcemetn does not make for a safer site -it's the way the site is operated and managed that counts more.

Why are you comparing a building to a fit-out Principal Contractor?

I am not defending the CSCS scheme but  I do understand but is an easy way to screen the basics.

mattcut  
#13 Posted : 14 October 2019 12:20:13(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mattcut

Originally Posted by: bxuxa Go to Quoted Post

By curiosity, what are they going to install?

What equipment?

Lots of specialist equipment that is only manufactured by a handful of companies. So they must install due to its nature. 

As an update we do now have a solution we are working on with the PC.

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