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Mersey  
#1 Posted : 31 January 2020 10:35:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mersey

Does anyone have examples of what sites can do during a pandemic?

Alcohol gels

Posters infection awareness 

Work from home

Any links ro procedures

Thanks

George_Young  
#2 Posted : 31 January 2020 10:49:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
George_Young

I have not really looked into myself, even tho I guess I should as it is believed that the first 2 UK patients are being treated 5 miles away.

but the WHO have offered guidance to protect yourself, so may be a nice place to start.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019

thanks 1 user thanked George_Young for this useful post.
Mersey on 05/02/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#3 Posted : 31 January 2020 11:08:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Pretty certain alcohol gels aren't particularly good at killing viruses.

Besides the Coronavirus thing is just slow news. Consider the size and density of the cities involved the numbers are extremely low. SARS was far worse, and that was a non-event.

Obviously when the wourld is a barren wasteland in a few weeks time I am going to look pretty silly...

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
Mersey on 05/02/2020(UTC)
peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 31 January 2020 12:07:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Captain - me too.

All the evidence to date is that for most people it is quite mild. It's a problem for those who are already vulnerable - exactly the same people for whom e.g. flu is a significant risk. 

Somebody from WHO yesterday said words to the effect that the global emergency has not been pronounced to protect people in places like the UK, but for those in countries with less high quality healthcare systems.

What's perhaps the no 1 reason why there are that population who are already vulnerable? - air quality (linked closely to climate change). 

I checked the recorded air quality in Wuhan the other day. It was dangerous for the vulnerable - that was in the middle of the most important holiday in the Chinese calendar AND with an almost complete shut down on traffic - i.e. when industry and motor vehicles werem't belching out fumes. On a normal work day the air quality is very, very poor.  making e.g. Hope Street in Glasgow look almost healthy.

So rather than a coordinated global effort to do something about climate change we have big media coverage of fires in Australia and now a corona virus. 

....and, amazingly, the NHS has managed to find some available accommodation to house and treat those being put into quarantine, rpresumably diverting some staff resources to do this.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 31/01/2020(UTC), UKCG73@GMAIL.COM on 03/02/2020(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#5 Posted : 31 January 2020 12:25:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Guess it allows the press to fill lots of column inches, scaring the public

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 31 January 2020 13:38:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I notice the North / South divide has emerged once again

Flown in to Brize Norton then driven 172 miles to Arrowe Park

Aldermaston 41 miles

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 71 miles 

Porton Down 75 miles

Edited by user 31 January 2020 13:44:06(UTC)  | Reason: ffs

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
jwk on 31/01/2020(UTC), Curious1 on 03/02/2020(UTC), jwk on 31/01/2020(UTC), Curious1 on 03/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 31 January 2020 13:38:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I notice the North / South divide has emerged once again

Flown in to Brize Norton then driven 172 miles to Arrowe Park

Aldermaston 41 miles

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 71 miles 

Porton Down 75 miles

Edited by user 31 January 2020 13:44:06(UTC)  | Reason: ffs

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
jwk on 31/01/2020(UTC), Curious1 on 03/02/2020(UTC), jwk on 31/01/2020(UTC), Curious1 on 03/02/2020(UTC)
George_Young  
#8 Posted : 31 January 2020 14:46:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
George_Young

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

I notice the North / South divide has emerged once again

Flown in to Brize Norton then driven 172 miles to Arrowe Park

Aldermaston 41 miles

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 71 miles 

Porton Down 75 miles


Adding to that. 2 suspected cases have been transported to the RVI in Newcastle Upon Tyne (just 5 miles away from me)

Ian Bell2  
#9 Posted : 31 January 2020 15:01:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

#6 Indeed landing at Liverpool or Manchester would have made more sense if the final destination was the Wirral.
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 31 January 2020 15:11:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Warton 41 miles or Hawarden 18 miles to keep it away from the public

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 31 January 2020 15:11:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Warton 41 miles or Hawarden 18 miles to keep it away from the public

johnmurray  
#12 Posted : 31 January 2020 16:56:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Bearing in mind that there is a laboratory doing research into viral infectious agents is in the same town the outbreak started....
The numbers are higher than stated, with some deceased patients being cremated after death with no autopsy, and many deaths recorded as from pneumonia with no link to the coronavirus.
The virus is reported to be more contagious than flu.
I have already received my health advice for it. Avoid crowded places, avoid public transport. Good advice anyway, anytime.
SNS  
#13 Posted : 01 February 2020 20:08:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SNS

Originally Posted by: George_Young Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

I notice the North / South divide has emerged once again

Flown in to Brize Norton then driven 172 miles to Arrowe Park

Aldermaston 41 miles - Nuclear not Chemical, probably too small for the numbers

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 71 miles - probably too small, more research is done in Liverpool

Porton Down 75 miles - probably too small for the number, and crumbling through lack of maintenance spend


Adding to that. 2 suspected cases have been transported to the RVI in Newcastle Upon Tyne (just 5 miles away from me) - sadly confirmed now but reportedly 'low risk of transmission'


As reported elsewhere is it not more worrying that the coaches were 'Horsemen' and there were 4 of them?

thanks 1 user thanked SNS for this useful post.
ttxela on 03/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 01 February 2020 21:00:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

And if you look closely none of the Horseman drivers were wearing PPE unlike the single "official" escort

Edited by user 01 February 2020 21:05:01(UTC)  | Reason: ffs

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 01 February 2020 21:00:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

And if you look closely none of the Horseman drivers were wearing PPE unlike the single "official" escort

Edited by user 01 February 2020 21:05:01(UTC)  | Reason: ffs

peter gotch  
#16 Posted : 02 February 2020 11:47:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Roundtuit, that bit was explained.

Apparently the passengers were at the back of each bus and more than 2m from the driver. 

We used to have a 2m rule for working at height. It's been replaced with a 2m rule for coughs and splutters.

I had failed to notice how many Horsemen there were.

Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 02 February 2020 13:14:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Thanks Peter - was watching the pictures not listening to the commentary.

The cynical me still had further niggles with the scene:

1) The passenger access door is usually at the front where the official was sat - these aren't quite 2m (or did they access from the mid-door / rear door?). Apparently passengers accessed before the driver. They will still have passed within 2m.

2) In an enclosed environment studies have show the human sneeze droplets can carry for 8m and stay airborne for quite some time so depositing along the entire length of the coach? five rows were left empty to the driver. Is 5 rows equal to 8m?

3) Most drivers I have seen typically "clean" the bus between journies - we all know from the adverts commercial cleansers only kill 99.9% of surface germs. Coaches going to be quarantined for 10 days after a "military grade clean"

4) That "official" would have the potential to be at both ends of the coach. No one fell ill on the journey, drivers sent home on a ten day quarantine with full pay. and those they subsequently come in to contact with? Spouse, wife, child, partner, delivery driver, meter reader, post man, milkman, door to door salesman, the shop keeper on their way home?

Blue font from the explanation on their web site: https://www.horsemancoaches.co.uk/

Edited by user 02 February 2020 13:27:23(UTC)  | Reason: post, post research

Roundtuit  
#18 Posted : 02 February 2020 13:14:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Thanks Peter - was watching the pictures not listening to the commentary.

The cynical me still had further niggles with the scene:

1) The passenger access door is usually at the front where the official was sat - these aren't quite 2m (or did they access from the mid-door / rear door?). Apparently passengers accessed before the driver. They will still have passed within 2m.

2) In an enclosed environment studies have show the human sneeze droplets can carry for 8m and stay airborne for quite some time so depositing along the entire length of the coach? five rows were left empty to the driver. Is 5 rows equal to 8m?

3) Most drivers I have seen typically "clean" the bus between journies - we all know from the adverts commercial cleansers only kill 99.9% of surface germs. Coaches going to be quarantined for 10 days after a "military grade clean"

4) That "official" would have the potential to be at both ends of the coach. No one fell ill on the journey, drivers sent home on a ten day quarantine with full pay. and those they subsequently come in to contact with? Spouse, wife, child, partner, delivery driver, meter reader, post man, milkman, door to door salesman, the shop keeper on their way home?

Blue font from the explanation on their web site: https://www.horsemancoaches.co.uk/

Edited by user 02 February 2020 13:27:23(UTC)  | Reason: post, post research

peter gotch  
#19 Posted : 02 February 2020 16:01:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Roundtuit

Were you actually expecting that the explanation would be convincing for a "cynic"?

How far the droplets would travel in an enclosed space would be dependent somewhat on the nature of an aircon system. Perhaps they got detailed technical advice on this, perhaps not.

No, I don't know what a "military grade clean" is either. Perhaps that's even better than you would expect in a Class A (or whatever the top classification is - I can't remember) path lab, perhaps not.

Shouldn't worry about the postie or the milkman (or milkwoman) if people around where Horseman drivers actually live. On low pay, so collateral damage. You can be reasonably sure that the driver doesn't live next door to a cabinet minister.

Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 02 February 2020 20:50:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sorry been busy discussing the grassy knowl in 1960's Texas with friends who happen to live on the same road as our Metro Mayor - no lichen covered signs, no shrubs or bushes overgrowing street furniture, all street lamps working (not switched off to save the council money) road markings clear and recently painted on a smooth pot-hole free tarmacadam. Just imagine if this was the road to a cabinet minister house a.k.a. "All animals are equal" as stated by the pigs?

A deep military clean brings to mind Ripley and her flame thrower in the alien films or the nuclear device at the end of Predator (but not the napalm from Evolution where dandruff shampoo was the eventual answer afetr the military got it wrong - again).

Just trying to locate a nice get away property in those remote valleys seen in the original Survivors series and similar apocalyptic dramas.

Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 02 February 2020 20:50:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sorry been busy discussing the grassy knowl in 1960's Texas with friends who happen to live on the same road as our Metro Mayor - no lichen covered signs, no shrubs or bushes overgrowing street furniture, all street lamps working (not switched off to save the council money) road markings clear and recently painted on a smooth pot-hole free tarmacadam. Just imagine if this was the road to a cabinet minister house a.k.a. "All animals are equal" as stated by the pigs?

A deep military clean brings to mind Ripley and her flame thrower in the alien films or the nuclear device at the end of Predator (but not the napalm from Evolution where dandruff shampoo was the eventual answer afetr the military got it wrong - again).

Just trying to locate a nice get away property in those remote valleys seen in the original Survivors series and similar apocalyptic dramas.

neil88  
#22 Posted : 03 February 2020 05:30:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
neil88

Originally Posted by: Mersey Go to Quoted Post

Does anyone have examples of what sites can do during a pandemic?

Alcohol gels

Posters infection awareness 

Work from home

Any links ro procedures

Thanks


Mersey.  We have significant operations in affected areas, so this is a real issue for us at the moment.

In brief, here are some things we've put in place.

------------------------------------

Background preparation

  • Identify key stakeholders in your leadership team who will be the policy / decision makers.  Make a whatsapp group as the situation is fluid
  • If you are a subcontractor, examine your contracts with clients to see the impact of work postponement or cancellation – liability clauses
  • If you are a client, examine your contracts with subcontractors in case you need to postpone or cancel work
  • IT department to make ready VPN access from work computers in case you need staff to work from home.  Install any applicable software in advance
  • Recall all overseas employees in affected areas, and monitor where outbreaks are occurring.  If they become stuck at the location you’ve got a serious problem.
  • Any employees returning from affected areas or suspected areas to not come to work for 14 days
  • Reduce international travel until risks become clearer
  • Cancel mass company gatherings

 

Operations

  • Identify non-essential workers or workers who are capable of working from home, you may need to announce measures at short notice so have this list ready.
  • All non-site workers to take their work laptop home every day. (in case of the above)
  • After the CNY holiday we asked staff to declare if they had been to affected areas – required their honesty as we were not going to examine passports.  People who had been to mainland china to stay at home 14 days.
  • Conduct daily thermometer scans of people entering site, highlights people who are already sick but not those who are still incubating.  Have a procedure for what to do if someone has a temperature. (we’ve found 3).  Act of scanning provides some visual reassurance
  • Require all employees to wear a mask during commute on company transport,  strongly recommend it on public transport. (becoming difficult due to mask shortage)
  • Reduce meetings to minimum
  • Rework the planned schedule to see what work could be postponed in case there is a minimum site staff.
  • Allow staff to travel off peak hours

Daily

  • Communication is key, monitor national news , WHO, international SOS
  • Expect disruption in staffing levels, transport
  • Update staff on the situation, ensure leaders are visible at sites where operations continue and are not hidden away in head office.
  • Continue pushing the message about hygiene, sanitisers.
  • Improve cleaning disinfection of areas with high footfall  

 

Non work-related issues which are having an effect:

  • Overloaded medical sector
  • Shortages of medical supplies
  • Disruption to food supplies in the supermarket
  • Schools are closed so a parent need to stay at home

thanks 3 users thanked neil88 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 03/02/2020(UTC), Mersey on 03/02/2020(UTC), andrewcl on 23/04/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#23 Posted : 03 February 2020 09:41:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Ok

First it’s not a pandemic yet but as people say prior proper planning prevents p*** poor performance.

Step one: makes sure that that your hygiene is upto standard. It should be anyway as you you should really be taking steps to make sure your employees don’t give each other their nasty diseases anyway, especially at this time of the year. Questions to ask:

  1. Are your hand wash facilities good enough?
  2. Do you have enough bins for snotty tissues and do they get emptied regularly when they are full.
  3. Do your cleaners wipe down fomates ie surfaces where bugs can hang out eg door knobs etc?
  4. Do you encourage staff who are ill to go home rather than leave them at work spreading their nasty diseases?

As I said, this is the sort of things any employer should be doing anyway but if the s*** hits the fan and it becomes a pandemic ie it is starting to spread widely , with the possibility of loads of people becoming infected , you have to look at the next level. You may have to think about at what point you just send everybody home. If you want to keep going you have to think about a massive increase in staff absences not only due to the infection itself but with people having to take time off to look after relatives including children who have been sent home from school as a precaution.

Even if you don’t close down completely you have to start planning for restrictions on operations: where you can send people and what they may be able to do.

The thing is you have to keep on top of it and keep updating your plans as the outbreak spreads.

 

Edited by user 04 February 2020 09:25:06(UTC)  | Reason: missing words

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Mersey on 03/02/2020(UTC)
ttxela  
#24 Posted : 03 February 2020 11:34:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

No, I don't know what a "military grade clean" is either. Perhaps that's even better than you would expect in a Class A (or whatever the top classification is - I can't remember) path lab, perhaps not.


Maybe they will fumigate with formaldehyde vapour, that's what I used to do in our CL3 lab.

Personally if a pandemic did take hold I would be investing in lots of bleach.

thanks 2 users thanked ttxela for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 03/02/2020(UTC), nic168 on 03/02/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#25 Posted : 03 February 2020 12:03:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

"Military grade clean" is in their hands and knees with toothbrushes (joke in case someone does not get it)

Amazing how many public health experts we have all of a sudden. It is still not clear how easily spread the virus is by for example sneezing and coughing or if (as it is for most of these infections) the main route of transmission is contact with contaminated surfaces and transfer to the face by dirty fingers. The 2 metre rule (which is of course arbitrary) a good rule of thumb. They were landed at RAF Brize Norton as, being an RAF base, it is easier to separate the returnees from other passengers and I suppose the RAF does not any suitable bases up north.

The people are being kept in limited isolation but not completely cut off. This is not Ebola.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 03/02/2020(UTC)
nic168  
#26 Posted : 03 February 2020 12:11:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

 Mersey, If you are in a "hot desk" workplace, can i suggest you remind staff about keeping workstations clean and ready for next user- extra cleaning products for phones and keyboards may help re-assure people that this is being taken seriously.

thanks 1 user thanked nic168 for this useful post.
Mersey on 03/02/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#27 Posted : 03 February 2020 12:42:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Whilst I feel for the families of the victims, I feel this is a huge over-reaction. In the same time as the virus has claimed 362 lives in China an estimated 44,000 people have died as a result of the air polution. In the UK the lower estimate in the same period is 760 deaths from air pollution. Surely we should be concentrating more on air quality than another flu/cold virus.

I thought proportional response was our mantra.

(As a side note, yet another contagious disease starting in animal agriculture. You never hear of carrot flu or chickpea fever. Save the planet - go vegan)

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 03/02/2020(UTC)
Curious1  
#28 Posted : 03 February 2020 14:48:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Curious1

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
And if you look closely none of the Horseman drivers were wearing PPE unlike the single "official" escort

At least one driver will be safe. He was wearing his HI Vis Vest.

thanks 1 user thanked Curious1 for this useful post.
Connor35037 on 03/02/2020(UTC)
inspector Gadget  
#29 Posted : 04 February 2020 12:27:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
inspector Gadget

Lots of public health experts and conspiracy theorists here...

I guess this is where society is heading... I have no doubt in 20 - 50 years time the history books will say that Kim Kardashian was a hugely talented woman who made a positive difference to the world and so is a role model, and the moon landing was a hoax. 

thanks 1 user thanked inspector Gadget for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 04/02/2020(UTC)
ttxela  
#30 Posted : 04 February 2020 13:07:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: inspector Gadget Go to Quoted Post

Lots of public health experts and conspiracy theorists here...

I guess this is where society is heading... I have no doubt in 20 - 50 years time the history books will say that Kim Kardashian was a hugely talented woman who made a positive difference to the world and so is a role model, and the moon landing was a hoax. 


Indeed, I have no time for all these conspiracy theories - I believe they are circulated to distract us from what the government are really up to.....

thanks 1 user thanked ttxela for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 04/02/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#31 Posted : 04 February 2020 20:59:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: inspector Gadget Go to Quoted Post
Lots of public health experts and conspiracy theorists here...
I guess this is where society is heading... I have no doubt in 20 - 50 years time the history books will say that Kim Kardashian was a hugely talented woman who made a positive difference to the world and so is a role model, and the moon landing was a hoax.


Books in 20 - 50 years time? History will be a series on subscription TV beamed to the smart glasses the dumb ass is wearing
Roundtuit  
#32 Posted : 04 February 2020 20:59:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: inspector Gadget Go to Quoted Post
Lots of public health experts and conspiracy theorists here...
I guess this is where society is heading... I have no doubt in 20 - 50 years time the history books will say that Kim Kardashian was a hugely talented woman who made a positive difference to the world and so is a role model, and the moon landing was a hoax.


Books in 20 - 50 years time? History will be a series on subscription TV beamed to the smart glasses the dumb ass is wearing
neil88  
#33 Posted : 05 February 2020 08:19:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
neil88

Originally Posted by: neil88 Go to Quoted Post

Mersey.  We have significant operations in affected areas, so this is a real issue for us at the moment.

In brief, here are some things we've put in place.

------------------------------------

Background preparation

  • Identify key stakeholders in your leadership team who will be the policy / decision makers.  Make a whatsapp group as the situation is fluid
  • If you are a subcontractor, examine your contracts with clients to see the impact of work postponement or cancellation – liability clauses
  • If you are a client, examine your contracts with subcontractors in case you need to postpone or cancel work
  • IT department to make ready VPN access from work computers in case you need staff to work from home.  Install any applicable software in advance
  • Recall all overseas employees in affected areas, and monitor where outbreaks are occurring.  If they become stuck at the location you’ve got a serious problem.
  • Any employees returning from affected areas or suspected areas to not come to work for 14 days
  • Reduce international travel until risks become clearer
  • Cancel mass company gatherings

 

Operations

  • Identify non-essential workers or workers who are capable of working from home, you may need to announce measures at short notice so have this list ready.
  • All non-site workers to take their work laptop home every day. (in case of the above)
  • After the CNY holiday we asked staff to declare if they had been to affected areas – required their honesty as we were not going to examine passports.  People who had been to mainland china to stay at home 14 days.
  • Conduct daily thermometer scans of people entering site, highlights people who are already sick but not those who are still incubating.  Have a procedure for what to do if someone has a temperature. (we’ve found 3).  Act of scanning provides some visual reassurance
  • Require all employees to wear a mask during commute on company transport,  strongly recommend it on public transport. (becoming difficult due to mask shortage)
  • Reduce meetings to minimum
  • Rework the planned schedule to see what work could be postponed in case there is a minimum site staff.
  • Allow staff to travel off peak hours

Daily

  • Communication is key, monitor national news , WHO, international SOS
  • Expect disruption in staffing levels, transport
  • Update staff on the situation, ensure leaders are visible at sites where operations continue and are not hidden away in head office.
  • Continue pushing the message about hygiene, sanitisers.
  • Improve cleaning disinfection of areas with high footfall  

 

Non work-related issues which are having an effect:

  • Overloaded medical sector
  • Shortages of medical supplies
  • Disruption to food supplies in the supermarket
  • Schools are closed so a parent need to stay at home


Update to include -

Unless there are national guidelines, have a plan ready for employees who return from affected areas.  Will they be allowed to come to the office or work from home for a period of time?

Check repatriation clauses in medical insurance for your overseas workers.

thanks 1 user thanked neil88 for this useful post.
Lloy on 06/02/2020(UTC)
stevedm  
#34 Posted : 05 February 2020 08:42:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

....I have tried to stay away from this thread but ...moth to a light....I have had everything in the last 2 weeks from can I use garlic to prevent it...(my response was not unless they come from transylvania..the PT didn't laugh!) to how long is it safe to hold my breath around chinese workers (who incidentally were born in the UK and work in South Africa)...we have done pandemic planning before with SARS and MERS it really just boils down to good hygiene and infection control...the problem as always is behaviour...some people don't wash thier hands, they pick thier noses and chew thier nails...to name but a few..it is suspected to be zoonoses...teach the correct method for hand washing (which incidentally is where the gels actually do some good work) and enforce it...look at your business continuity plans and shift rotations for workers being off or suggsted quarantine time (which ECDC suggests a little longer that for SARS or MERS of 3-14 days), especially those who are working in close proximity to each other...

Hsquared14  
#35 Posted : 05 February 2020 11:00:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I've just returned to work from having 'flu and a chest infection which put me in hospital for 6 days.  I have a reduced immune system due to leukaemia.  I am cleaning my desk, keyboard and 'phone daily myself with antibacterial products, I've stopped shaking hands with people, I am using hand sanitiser (hospital told me it kills most viruses and bacteria if you get the right one - the only real exception is norovirus but some wipes will kill that too) There is someone on the forum who is an expert on these infection things but his name currently escapes me and I didn't see it in the list against the thread so I'm guessing he is keeping a low profile at the moment - lol

Claire65  
#36 Posted : 31 August 2020 09:55:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Claire65

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

....I have tried to stay away from this thread but ...moth to a light....I have had everything in the last 2 weeks from can I use garlic to prevent it...(my response was not unless they come from transylvania..the PT didn't laugh!) to how long is it safe to hold my breath around chinese workers (who incidentally were born in the UK and work in South Africa)...we have done pandemic planning before with SARS and MERS it really just boils down to good hygiene and infection control...the problem as always is behaviour...some people don't wash thier hands, they pick thier noses and chew thier fungal nails...to name but a few..it is suspected to be zoonoses...teach the correct method for hand washing (which incidentally is where the gels actually do some good work) and enforce it...look at your business continuity plans and shift rotations for workers being off or suggsted quarantine time (which ECDC suggests a little longer that for SARS or MERS of 3-14 days), especially those who are working in close proximity to each other...



I tried the garlic... but to no avail, only result is, now they have the flu AND stink... :D
Roundtuit  
#37 Posted : 31 August 2020 10:17:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

REPORTED. Clever to embed your link in another users post
Roundtuit  
#38 Posted : 31 August 2020 10:17:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

REPORTED. Clever to embed your link in another users post
chris.packham  
#39 Posted : 31 August 2020 11:44:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Firstly re alcohol gel...

The many studies I have show clearly that with certain exceptions (e.g. heavily soiled hands or spores, such as C.difficile) alcohol gels, provided they meet at least WHO standard, are superior in decontamination to hand washing. They are also not damaging to the skin unlike frequent hand washing. In fact the 'official' NICE accredited guidance on infection prevention for NHS England (epic3) states for hand decontamination that this should be by means of alcohol gel with just two situations where hand washing is required.

Secondly I treat the statistics re deaths from COVID-19 with some caution. Consider someone who was diagnosed with COVID-19 and recovered quickly. Just under four weeks later they suffer a fatal heart attack. The current arrangement for cause of death is that if this occurs within 28 days after the infection it counts as death by COVID-19,  apparently regardless whether there was any clinically detectable connection between the infection and the cause of death. Am I being unduly naive or cynical in wondering whether the official statistics might overstate the numbers?

peter gotch  
#40 Posted : 31 August 2020 12:56:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Chris

I think there it is inevitable that with the way the statistics are counted there will be overreporting AND underreporting.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/908781/Technical_Summary_PHE_Data_Series_COVID-19_Deaths_20200812.pdf

“The PHE data series does not include deaths in people where COVID-19 is suspected but not confirmed by testing (SARS-CoV-2 PCR either negative or not done).

Furthermore, the PHE data series does not report cause of death, and as such represents deaths in people with COVID-19 and not necessarily caused by COVID-19.”

Personally, if I had drafted this I would have written “In contrast” instead of “Furthermore”, since the first of these paragraphs in the Public Health England text

  1. does not count deaths where COVID is a suspected cause but has not been confirmed by laboratory test [so probably indicative of underreporting – and given the shortcomings in arranging tests in the UK, particularly in the early months of the pandemic, possibly indicative of very significant underreporting] 
  2. but does include deaths where COVID has been confirmed but may not be the cause [so probably indicative of overreporting, though it must be very difficult for clinicians to exclude COVID as a cause if someone has been in intensive care for say 21 days, and seems to have recovered for the initial reason for being there]

In ye olden days, if you could show that something could be shown to have caused death that occurred with a year and a day, this counted as a fatality in British law, subject to the expert opinion that there is a causal chain all along that time period.

So, as example, if someone sustained an amputation in an accident at work, then an issue in hospital resulted in blood poisoning, and then may be a stroke, you might be able to connect the death from stroke to the initial amputation.

Given the incredible levels of improvements in healthcare, I find the 28 (or 60 day) threshold somewhat arbitrary. Hospitals put people into medically induced comas for well over 28 days when the circumstances dictate.

The good news in the PHE paper (yet to be peer reviewed) is that they quote very high percentages of direct links to back up their statistical approach.

However, I was quite cynical when the method of counting was changed to enable the official total number of COVID deaths in the UK to be slashed – the “precautionary approach” might have suggested changing the approach taken in Scotland, England and Wales to up the numbers, rather than reducing the numbers in England to be compatible with the method of counting elsewhere in the UK.

What will happen when Public Health England is axed?

Maria85  
#41 Posted : 10 September 2020 08:34:01(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Maria85

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Peter - was watching the pictures not listening to the commentary.

The cynical me still had further niggles with the scene:

1) The passenger access door is usually at the front where the official was sat - these aren't quite 2m (or did they access from the mid-door / rear door?). Apparently passengers accessed before the driverThey will still have passed within 2m.

2) In an enclosed environment studies have show the human sneeze droplets can carry for 8m and stay airborne for quite some time so depositing along the entire length of the coach? five rows were left empty to the driver. Is 5 rows equal to 8m?

3) Most drivers I have seen typically "clean" the bus between journies - we all know from the adverts commercial cleansers only kill 99.9% of surface germs. Coaches going to be quarantined for 10 days after a "military grade clean"

4) That "official" would have the potential to be at both ends of the coach. No one fell ill on the journey, drivers sent home on a ten day quarantine with full pay. and those they subsequently come in to contact with? Spouse, wife, child, partner, delivery driver, meter reader, post man, milkman, door to door salesman, the shop keeper on their way home?

Blue font from the explanation on their web site: https://www.horsemancoaches.co.uk/

Opinions differ for 10 days now..

Roundtuit  
#42 Posted : 10 September 2020 10:02:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

REPORTED - links have been added and modified as commercial click bait

Roundtuit  
#43 Posted : 10 September 2020 10:02:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

REPORTED - links have been added and modified as commercial click bait

peter gotch  
#44 Posted : 10 September 2020 10:23:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Roundtuit - well spotted.

Looks like Claire65 at #36 which you reported on 31 August (with no subsequent moderation) has changed their name to Maria85. Link to same commercial website.

Will it be Georg45 in another 10 days?

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