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CptBeaky  
#1 Posted : 02 June 2020 08:01:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I love walking my dog, but have always hated crowds (or people in general). I use an ap to find right of ways (ROWs) nearby and plan my walks accordingly. Whilst on the walk I see many things that shock me, from barbed wire on stiles to open pits within a few metres of the ROW. This has me wondering, does the owner of the land (assuming it is a work place) has a duty of care to ensure the ROW is safe? And from this I get the following questions.

  1. Are crop/livestock fields a place of work?
  2. Does this duty to protect the public extend off the ROW to the nearby areas
  3. Is a "Beware of the Bull" sign a good enough control to stop the public being hurt, or should there be an actual barrier put in place?

More of a thought exercise than anything else. If only to move onto a different subject than COVID.

BernieGale123  
#2 Posted : 02 June 2020 08:17:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BernieGale123

Have a chat to the local Farmer you will get some wonderful comments worth recording on here!!

Yes seriosuly Farms are very dangerous and Death rates far too high

Living in Rural Devon I see many wonderful examples but a risk assessment - No chance.

Usually the Parish Council will have a rights of way officer who will listen to your cocerns and may step in.

But the Farmer............if you bloody townies cum here with yeh virus you get whats cuming to yeh

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 02 June 2020 08:46:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As a farm typically includes fields then yes they form part of the workspace.

Does your duty to the public extend beyond your employers curtilage?

The bull is kept in a barn, field, paddock all of which have physical barriers in the form of gates/doors, walls/fences - to use the ROW you have crossed the physical barrier - adding the signage is a proportionate control unless it is the female of the species being more deadly than the male https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52869060

Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 02 June 2020 08:46:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As a farm typically includes fields then yes they form part of the workspace.

Does your duty to the public extend beyond your employers curtilage?

The bull is kept in a barn, field, paddock all of which have physical barriers in the form of gates/doors, walls/fences - to use the ROW you have crossed the physical barrier - adding the signage is a proportionate control unless it is the female of the species being more deadly than the male https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52869060

CptBeaky  
#5 Posted : 02 June 2020 09:03:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Is a sign really enough? If you had a ROW/pedestrian route across a yard with forklifts driving, would the HSE accept a beware of the forklift sign as the only control once you stepped through the gate onto the yard? Would it be acceptable to have an open pit within two metres of a pedestrian route, with no barriers around it?

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 02 June 2020 09:25:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf

HSE consider signange "good practice".

You should not confuse the risk from an operated vehicle with the risk from livestock.

The person using the ROW has an equal duty not to put themself at risk - we really need to get away from the mentallity that any accident occurring to me is always someone elses neglect/fault.

Clouseau - "does your dog bite?"

Inn keeper -  "No"

Having been bitten Clouseau - "I thought you said your dog does not bite?

Inn keeper - "That is not my dog"

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 02 June 2020 09:25:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf

HSE consider signange "good practice".

You should not confuse the risk from an operated vehicle with the risk from livestock.

The person using the ROW has an equal duty not to put themself at risk - we really need to get away from the mentallity that any accident occurring to me is always someone elses neglect/fault.

Clouseau - "does your dog bite?"

Inn keeper -  "No"

Having been bitten Clouseau - "I thought you said your dog does not bite?

Inn keeper - "That is not my dog"

CptBeaky  
#8 Posted : 02 June 2020 09:41:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

That document does answer a lot of my questions, but it does seem to indicate that bulls shouldn't really be kept in fields with ROW unless under very specfic circumstances, which I am pretty sure farmers in my area are ignoring. They are certainly ignoring the rules governing electric fences, with whole sections unsigned.

Doesn't cover open pits, placing planks across ditches, barbed wire on stiles and gates etc. All of which would be unallowed in a normal workplace.

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 02 June 2020 10:15:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Have you asked the farmers if they are ignoring the "rules" or is it just your perception that because a bull is present they have?

If you read the document you will see it is the proverbial double edged sword for the farmer damned if they do and damned if they do not e.g. not leaving signs in place when a public hazard is no longer present can be considered obstruction. When you are moving tonnes of livestock around remembering the signs is pretty low in the conscience.

Whilst you may be a responsible dog owner there are many who behave incredibly recklessley allowing their animals to run free disturbing livestock including critical times such as lambing season.

These encounters affect the animals future behaviour and may not be noted in the framers usual daily contact.

Also consider your App's source of data - are they actual designated ROW as marked on an Ordnance Survey map or merely a route some people have walked?

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 02 June 2020 10:15:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Have you asked the farmers if they are ignoring the "rules" or is it just your perception that because a bull is present they have?

If you read the document you will see it is the proverbial double edged sword for the farmer damned if they do and damned if they do not e.g. not leaving signs in place when a public hazard is no longer present can be considered obstruction. When you are moving tonnes of livestock around remembering the signs is pretty low in the conscience.

Whilst you may be a responsible dog owner there are many who behave incredibly recklessley allowing their animals to run free disturbing livestock including critical times such as lambing season.

These encounters affect the animals future behaviour and may not be noted in the framers usual daily contact.

Also consider your App's source of data - are they actual designated ROW as marked on an Ordnance Survey map or merely a route some people have walked?

CptBeaky  
#11 Posted : 02 June 2020 10:49:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

The app uses ordnance survey data, I wouldn't use it otherwise.

I will highlight a few of the rules which seem to be ignored, I will ignore the livestock's temprement as this is subjective. Just because a herd of cattle behave in what I construe as aggressive, the farmer may interpret otherwise. And obviously just because a bull looks like a specific breed, doesn't mean it is.

■ Check that fences, gates, stiles etc are safe and fit for their purpose. (As I said some are covered in barbed wire)

■ Check paths are clearly marked so that users do not enter fields without public access. (often the paths go through bushes forcing the walker to go around, and often the signposts have fallen down)

■ A suitable bull sign would be triangular with a yellow background and a black band around the outside. A bull or bull’s head should be shown (black on yellow) on the sign, with supplementary text (also black on yellow) such as ‘bull in field’ if desired. Supplementary text should not suggest that the bull is aggressive, threatening or dangerous (ie avoid words such as ‘beware’ or ‘danger’). (I can supply photos if needed of "Beware, bull in field")

■ Signs should not be displayed, or should be securely covered, when the animals to which they refer are not present in the field or area. Misleading signs which deter the public from exercising their right of responsible access are likely to be regarded as obstruction and should never be used. (often there are no cattle in the fields on which these signs are displayed)

■ Electrified stock fencing used near to public rights of way will also require warning signs located at suitable intervals along its length – generally 50 to 100 m apart. (recently a whole side of the field had no signage regading an electric fence, which was a less used route, but still a ROW)

Whilst this was more of a thought experiment, I don't really think that not "remembering" to do something is a vaild defence in regards the law.

This is not a single farmer that I am singling out, it is endemic when I go roaming. Admittedly some farmers are far better than others. This is why I was interested in what the rules are. For example, we can all accept that they don't need to provide adequate lighting for those walking at night etc. but surely the basics should be covered.

A "Bull in field" notice seems a very loose control on what could be a very dangerous situation. If a person has to traverse the field and the bull attacked them, would it be deemed that the sign was suitable and sufficient? I was genuinely interested. The guidance seems to suggest it would be. I then wonder why it has such a low control allowed compared to other industries. I use the forklift analogy because it has the same implications. You will be struck by a moving object. Admittedly, the forklifts could be seen as safer as the people driving them have been trained not to hit people.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 02/06/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 02 June 2020 12:03:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This document from the HSE describes the law about bulls and cattle in fields https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf

Back in the day when I worked for Defra we often had people walking across farmland doing field work and cattle were definitely a significant hazard to be managed.

The law is quite clear that bulls should not be allowed into field where there is a designated right of way. This law only applies to bulls from certain recognised breeds and those that are not classified as calves etc. The HSE recommends that fields were a bull is kept particularly one that is aggressive should have a warning sign

Natasha.Graham  
#13 Posted : 02 June 2020 12:07:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Natasha.Graham

Interesting topic - I live in a semi rural area with lots of fields and farms.

Walkers have been accessing some of these fields to undertake their daily exercise and it's caused a right old debate.  The Farmers have taken to putting "Private Property" signs on all of their access points and claim that there is no such that as a "Right of Way" anymore, and are threatening members of the public who "trespass" and in the words of the farmers "infect my livestock with COVID19"!!! 

Wailes900134  
#14 Posted : 02 June 2020 12:37:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

We have much the same but I must admit the farmers have had no problem as long as people stick to the rights of way, and don't leave dog muck behind. I have not found any deliberate blocking of ROW here in the twenty odd years (although sometimes they need a reminder to trim the bushes back near styles) and it's been good to see people out enjoying the many paths out of, and around the village, which is much easier in this lovely weather. Unfortunately there have been a small number of dog owners who stray from the paths, don't keep control of their dogs, or collect & take the waste home. Strangely when challenged they have been extremely ascertive (even aggressive) in their rights (about which they're wrong of course) claiming to know better than farmers about how harmless fresh dog muck is to cattle when grazing, and that throwing bags of s**t onto bushes is allowed because he hasn't installed a bin, etc.

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 02 June 2020 13:06:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/business-management/health-and-safety/what-farmers-need-to-know-about-fencing-and-the-law#:~:text=The%20courts%20have%20made%20it,can%20be%20a%20criminal%20offence.&text=This%20can%20be%20an%20expensive,altered%20along%20the%20entire%20route.

The interesting part is "how wide" is the actual Right Of Way - just because a ROW follows a road through a farmyard it does not necessarily follow the public has the right of access to the full width of the road and it may be in fact be as narrow as a single foot track.

The presence of barb wire or electric livestock fences adjacent to the ROW is not inherently wrong.

Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 02 June 2020 13:06:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/business-management/health-and-safety/what-farmers-need-to-know-about-fencing-and-the-law#:~:text=The%20courts%20have%20made%20it,can%20be%20a%20criminal%20offence.&text=This%20can%20be%20an%20expensive,altered%20along%20the%20entire%20route.

The interesting part is "how wide" is the actual Right Of Way - just because a ROW follows a road through a farmyard it does not necessarily follow the public has the right of access to the full width of the road and it may be in fact be as narrow as a single foot track.

The presence of barb wire or electric livestock fences adjacent to the ROW is not inherently wrong.

A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 02 June 2020 14:57:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Defra has the power to close public footpaths but only if there is an outbreak that affects animal health and welfare such as foot and mouth. Covid 19 does not count and so blocking RoW is illegal.

 

John Murray  
#18 Posted : 03 June 2020 09:35:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Other don'ts for landowners

  • You cannot grow crops on a public right of way, however grass can be grown for hay and silage.
  • Dairy bulls over 10 months are not allowed to cross over a field with a right of way.
  • You cannot put up stiles or gates without the permission of your local authority.
  • You cannot put up misleading signs to prevent people from using a public right of way.
  • You are not allowed to harrass, intimidate (e.g. placing a fierce dog on public right of way) or prevent members of the public from using a public right of way.
  • It is an offence under the Highways Act 1980 to put up barbed wires, electric fences or exposed barb wire that prevents or obstructs a public right of way.
  • http://www.environmentlaw.org.uk/rte.asp?id=207
stevedm  
#19 Posted : 03 June 2020 10:26:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

...in a bit of a counter to the list of landowners responsibilities...if you want the enjoy that persons land you have to include and ahere to the responsibilities in Schedule 2 of the Contryside and Rights of Way Act...which include but aren't limited to:  do not carry or use a metal detector feed the animals or damage any face gate or wall etc..I have been in the farming community all of my life and those that think they know the ROW laws generally are missinformed, not saying you are but step off a public footpath and you are tresspassing..so I put my bull there because that is the best for my livestock...we have lost a wee bit of this thing called respect in establishing these rights, I enjoy the walk too but I don't think it is my god geven right, it is a privilege....the act was brought in to protect farmers/ landowners not protect walkers...

Wailes900134  
#20 Posted : 03 June 2020 10:51:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

I think you both make a good point and reminds me that we generally have both rights and responsibilities which will undoubtedly work best with some common courtesy and mutual respect from everyone.

CptBeaky  
#21 Posted : 03 June 2020 10:53:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I feel my clickbait-y title may be getting this topic bogged down with livestock. I was also interested in such things as the use of a plank to cross ditches, with no hand rail, or excuvation holes with no barriers near paths.

For arguments sack, lets assume that the walkers are obeying the rules and keeping to the ROW where possible. I was interested in whether the farmer also has a duty extending to the surrounding area of the ROW as well as the ROW.

As I stated, and I can find articles in the press (for what they are worth) some farmers seem to be making very questionable choices when maintaining the ROW. If the site was easier to upload photos I could show you what I mean. Let me list a few examples though.

  • Electric fence around a field usually used for crops, now containing sheep. Perimeter probably 500m square. ROW runs along two edges, with one of the edges also a busy bridleway. Signs only on the bridleway edge.
  • Ditch around a crop field roughly 1m in depth, crossed using two sleepers, one of which had collapsed. No handrail.
  • Gate into sheep field, latch broken so it was held closed using barbed wire made into a loop and hung over one of the uprights
  • Several stiles have barbed wire placed on the top edge. With no other hand holds to assist climbing the stile (great fun for those responsible dog walkers with dogs on a lead that also need to be carried over, getting a dog over safely on your own should be a Crystal Maze challenge)
  • Routes through overgrown thorn bushes that haven't been trimmed back.
  • Holding cattle in fields whilst waiting for them to be moved on or allowing them to congregate on ROWs, meaning that distancing from the cattle is impossible (classic example was the gate to the field was missing, allowing the cattle onto a byway (not used by motor vehicles) that was gated at each end. The cattle were congregated around one end of the byway, waiting to be fed. The only way on was through the herd, the only way around would have been 5 miles back the way I had come)

My thoughts were, if this was happening on a pedestrian route in my work place I would be (rightly)taken to task. Whilst I can appreciate that given the dangerous nature of farms, these aren't top priorities, I didn't understand why such practises seem to be allowed. It appears they are not allowed, but continue anyway.

Disclaimer, I am not saying all farmers are bad, most of my walks are on well managed paths. This is what highlighted the bad cases so much.

Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 03 June 2020 12:27:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why not raise these concerns with those who can influence and act upon your observations?

The open gate by example was a prosecution for one farmer (see Farmers Weekly article). 

The land owner (not necessarily the farmer) who has the duties

The local council or unitary authority

The local highways agency

Your observations may be valid - the authorities through investigation can provide clarification.

Roundtuit  
#23 Posted : 03 June 2020 12:27:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why not raise these concerns with those who can influence and act upon your observations?

The open gate by example was a prosecution for one farmer (see Farmers Weekly article). 

The land owner (not necessarily the farmer) who has the duties

The local council or unitary authority

The local highways agency

Your observations may be valid - the authorities through investigation can provide clarification.

aud  
#24 Posted : 03 June 2020 19:10:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

There is an average of 1 member of public killed by livestock (cattle usually) each year. You will no doubt be aware of the latest in North Yorkshire. These are nearly all related to cows (not bulls) with calves, as the HSE guidance AIS 17EW(rev1) mentions. However, I have yet to meet a farmer (and I have met a lot of the better ones on an HSE project) who has actually read this. They mostly know the 'bull' rule, but that's it. They can be dismissive about the lack of awareness of those not in the farming community, some believe "people should know!" or not be there.

There is a herd in the adjoining field here through which is a RoW. There are 20 or so mothers with calves and a bull. The farmer treats them like pets, wouldn't consider they could do any harm. Yesterday this family of placid cattle went completely doo-lally for no obvious reason, kicking and running at each other, jumping up, head butting, the calves having their own fights, the bull just looked on for the 5 minutes it lasted. Even I, with my farming background, would have been concerned had I been on the footpath at that time.

As for the other hazards: yes, it happens and it shouldn't. During my job visiting farmers, one memorable farm had a single saggy length of hayband 'fencing' the edge of a concreted bridleway running alongside a slurry pit. The slurry was at the same level, and looked as solid as the path. The farmer could not see any problem. Another had an open well - no edge, just a big hole, at the side of a path. Broken and rotten posts, fences and 'bridges' are common. Awkward narrow or ladder stiles and gates also. It would help if they maintained the signposting, but few farmers actually walk the paths, although they might drive past in a tractor or quad. Barbed wire 'tie wraps' are a more deliberate act.

The footpaths officer of the local council was the best go-to, but with cuts (and Covid) I doubt there are many about now. The Parish Council can be responsible for the maintenance of paths but would liaise through FP office. Ramblers Association have a report form for problems of any type.

thanks 1 user thanked aud for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 04/06/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#25 Posted : 04 June 2020 08:24:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

When I was at Defra, we hired some seasonal workers one of whom was an ex-stockman. I as telling the new inductees about the risks posed by livestock and one of the other newbies sniggered and this guy intervened. He told us about a prize bull he had reared from a calf and how it used to follow him around the farm. One day it decided to “play” with him and knocked him over and broke his back. He recovered but didn’t work with livestock again. He made it clear to everybody that you must treat animals with respect and realise that they might turn on you at any time for reasons that are not obvious. Even sheep (particularly larger rams) can pose a threat and do kill people.

Bigmac1  
#26 Posted : 04 June 2020 09:06:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

1. Yes its a place of work

2. Should you be trespassing

3. Signs yes but isny a bloody great fence and gate a barrier

CptBeaky  
#27 Posted : 04 June 2020 09:16:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1 Go to Quoted Post

1. Yes its a place of work

2. Should you be trespassing

3. Signs yes but isny a bloody great fence and gate a barrier

  1. I think we established that
  2. ROW is not tresspassing, and as a side not, trespassing isn't agains the law, however it is "an essential element" of other offences (source CPS)
  3. The fence/gate have to be passable if it is on a ROW, thus by themself offer no protection on the ROW. That is like arguing you don't need walkways in a factory, as the front door is a good enough barrier.
A Kurdziel  
#28 Posted : 04 June 2020 09:31:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A ROW means that it is not trespassing-that’s the definition of ROW. It is a criminal offence to block or otherwise stop people using the right of way. Furthermore any occupier of land has duties that have been codified under the Occupiers Liability Act 1957 and in particular the 1984 Act. To balance out the need for farmers to farm their land while at the same time allowing people have  legitimate access the countryside there is a Code of Practice which describes how farmers should mange access to their land. And before anybody asks why farmers should abide by this code and anything else, farmers get £3.5 billion pounds a year from the tax payer. The money (much to the farmers chagrin) comes with strings attached but essentially it is tied to them working in an environmentally friendly way which enables others ie tax payers access to the countryside.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 04/06/2020(UTC), Accidentia on 04/06/2020(UTC)
stevedm  
#29 Posted : 04 June 2020 10:44:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

...don't disagree with anything you have said, but not once did I say blocking a ROW was legal or the right thing to do..just merely that the people using it as with all other duty of care debates have a duty to use it responsibly...and follow the rules..you can't put all of the responsibility onto the landowner for people who are stupid enough to throw a beer can at a bull...

the stats on 

So duty of care  - having a bull in a field is not prohibited so long as there are cows there as well...where there is a structure that is the repornsibility of the landowner ot should be maintained, however that should be coordinated with the highways agency as they have a responsibility there too...trespass...if you are not on a public right of way you are as you don't have a right to be there...

CptBeaky  
#30 Posted : 08 June 2020 09:20:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I can't agree with the "tresspass" defence, because it wouldn't wash in any other industry. Are construction firms allowed to leave the site in a dangerous condition and tell the parents of any child that strayed onto the site that they shouldn't have been tresspassing?

Should I have a ROW through the yard on our manufacturing site, should I be allowed to just put a sign at either end of the yard with an atrrow pointing vaguely towards the other side and a sign saying forklifts on site? And if a person steps off from this unmarked path and gets struck will I be allowed to claim that they shouldn't have left the path?

This doesn't even take into account the tresspass isn't illegal. As long as you when asked, and not damage anything whilst you are there, there is very little legal protection for land owners.

I understand making a field safe is a lot harder than an enclosed work space, and there are less practicable controls.

stevedm  
#31 Posted : 08 June 2020 10:19:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

...agreed..and in your example if I strayed off the puiblic ROW in your site what would happen?...I am not in an area that it is agreed I can be...so yes I agree in principle, most landowners would say you don't have permission to be on thier land outside of the public ROW...besides detracting from the main comment...the requirement is that Highways maintain ROW...and in some instances that is also assisted by the landowner who can provide thier own fence gate etc...but yes is must be maintained...like everywhere 80/20 good and bad...

thanks 1 user thanked stevedm for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 08/06/2020(UTC)
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