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Brian Hagyard  
#1 Posted : 30 July 2020 11:25:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Something not covid related for a change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53570487

Now as a parent I get the worry if this happened to your child. I know this site fairly well as at University in Bangor. Have even SUBA dived the plung pools  (got some strange looks from the hikers when we were carrying air tanks!

At the end of the day it’s a waterfall on a river on a mountainside on part of the Llanberis path up the mountain we call Snowden. A 9 mile path with lots of places you could fall! Is it just me or are people forgetting that the world is not a safe place? If we flattened or fenced every conceivable natural risk would anybody actually want to visit?

Sorry rant over - glad the littel girl is OK.

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Jason90212992 on 08/08/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#2 Posted : 30 July 2020 11:35:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Agree, although we are in danger of getting into the 'common sense' debate. I always wonder where parental responsibiilty comes into such things. Take the example of the young child that was killed many years ago when playing in a graveyard, when a gravestone fell on them. Err, a graveyard is not a playground, and what were the parents doing, or is it a case of if anything bad happens, it's someone else's fault? The end result was that a mass exercise of removing leaning gravestones, or propping them up, was embarked on, affecting gravestones that had probably stood for a couple of centuries being disturbed, all because they could fall on young children playing on them. Streuth.

CptBeaky  
#3 Posted : 30 July 2020 11:40:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

First step is to eliminate the hazard.

Two options here, we either get rid of the waterfall, or the parents don't take the child to the waterfall. I know which I would deem the better option.

The idea of fencing off a beauty spot, or erecting posts along the edge so that they can put life belts on them is obscene. Unfortunately humans still feel that we were "put" on this planet to exploit it as much as we like, it is our "God given right".

Seriously, don't take children to dangerous places, even if Jurassic Park has taught us that it is ok.

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biker1 on 30/07/2020(UTC), nic168 on 04/08/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#4 Posted : 30 July 2020 11:57:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Children have to learn about risk, but a hundred foot waterfall is probably not the best place to do so.

A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 30 July 2020 11:57:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The article quotes a parent as saying “something must be done”. Whenever something like this happens someone somewhere says “something must be done” but nobody ever makes it what that “thing” is. We could ban people from travelling into anything remotely wild but do we really want to? So far there has not been any legal cases surrounding this and based on earlier cases the law accepts that his is one of those things where all you can expect is that people take extra care and parents in particular take care of their children.

I live in York and all along the riverside there are little memorials to the people who have drowned in the Ouse. In most cases they dived in for a challenge and the rest is simply a tragedy but the riverside walks are still open and the barriers alongside the river are not that significant and easily climbed over but people on the whole accept that there is risk near water.

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 30 July 2020 12:29:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

There is plenty of case law that in general says no duty to protect against the risks of obvious natural hazards.

In modern practice, protection is often provided despite the case law, as shown in one of the photos on the BBC link.

MrBrightside  
#7 Posted : 30 July 2020 13:26:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

Someone puts in barriers, said parents and others will then complain that 'the beauty has been ruined by bonkers elf and safety'.

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A Kurdziel on 30/07/2020(UTC)
Todai  
#8 Posted : 30 July 2020 13:36:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Todai

in my view; if its a naturally occuring hazard like this one. Then as a parent you should make known the risks to the child for example, dont go near the edge. it's not anyones responsibility but your own in my view. 

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 30 July 2020 21:56:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

How's about we permanently lock the blatantly stupid in their own homes (or preferably the old style asylums)?

No need for barriers and signs along canals, rivers, quarries, reservoirs, airports, runways, ports, harbours, bridges, roads, dual carriageways, motorways.....

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/m60-traffic-grinds-halt-pedestrian-18663463​​​​​​​

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biker1 on 31/07/2020(UTC), biker1 on 31/07/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 30 July 2020 21:56:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

How's about we permanently lock the blatantly stupid in their own homes (or preferably the old style asylums)?

No need for barriers and signs along canals, rivers, quarries, reservoirs, airports, runways, ports, harbours, bridges, roads, dual carriageways, motorways.....

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/m60-traffic-grinds-halt-pedestrian-18663463​​​​​​​

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biker1 on 31/07/2020(UTC), biker1 on 31/07/2020(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#11 Posted : 31 July 2020 07:52:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

No need for barriers and signs along canals, rivers, quarries, reservoirs, airports, runways, ports, harbours, bridges, roads, dual carriageways, motorways.....

Totaly agree!

chris42  
#12 Posted : 31 July 2020 08:27:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The report states:

“The family has returned to the waterfall since the accident to try to work out what happened, and to see if there were any warning signs that they had missed.”

What exactly could a sign message convey that a river and 100ft waterfall couldn’t?

 Perhaps next year they may go for a day trip to the rim of an active volcano.

Chris

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biker1 on 31/07/2020(UTC), Connor35037 on 31/07/2020(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#13 Posted : 31 July 2020 08:45:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

What exactly could a sign message convey that a river and 100ft waterfall couldn’t?

 

Do you think the name confused them its says "water fall" they did not realise that "people fall" as well?

Sorry but its Friday!

Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 31 July 2020 08:50:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

With signs you also have to be careful of the langauge - not everyone can read and comprehened English text.

Even the ISO warning sign pictograms could be miss interpreted as instruction if you have not been educated as to the purpose of yellow triangle signs.

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 31 July 2020 08:50:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

With signs you also have to be careful of the langauge - not everyone can read and comprehened English text.

Even the ISO warning sign pictograms could be miss interpreted as instruction if you have not been educated as to the purpose of yellow triangle signs.

A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 31 July 2020 08:52:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We have society that has forgotten how dangerous the world can be: they assume that life's “default setting” is rainbows and unicorns, where nothing bad can really happen. Like that idiot on the motorway, they assume that people will be able to take avoiding action and they won’t get  harmed and if it goes wrong IT’S SOMEONE ELSE’S FAULT.

It’s our job as H&S professionals to explain that the world is potentially very nasty and it is only because of  the systems that have been established and maintained that something resembling safety exists at all. Someone has to create those systems and people must engage with those systems, be it following a workplace RAMS or waiting the lights to change when moving off. You can’t palm off that responsibility onto others. Some people have not been educated in that hard truth and they go blundering into areas they don’t understand and assume that SOMEONE will bail them out if it all goes wrong.  

Edited by user 31 July 2020 11:38:34(UTC)  | Reason: actually writing in English

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stevedm on 31/07/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#17 Posted : 31 July 2020 09:26:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

So, these parents expected that there would be warning signs on the waterfall? Streuth. What next - fall protection barriers on mountains, a permit system for walking along a canal, warning signs about not walking on a motorway? Why not spread this idiocy to the home - cut off power in case people burn themselves on hot pans, remove baths in case they drown, remove all doors in case they trap their fingers in them, put up protective barriers at the end of every driveway in case people walk into the road? I don't know about putting such people in an asylum; I think they have already taken it over.

chris.packham  
#18 Posted : 31 July 2020 11:09:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

One problem is that we tend to rely on people having what we call 'common sense'. Unfortunately it is neither common nor in most cases does it make sense. At least not unless it is based on some ability and general knowledge. Even then I find it often inappropriate. In this I am not alone. Perhaps we should adopt an approach based on Prof. Brian Cox’s statement in his book ‘Human Universe’: “Common sense is completely worthless and irrelevant when investigating reality.”

peter gotch  
#19 Posted : 31 July 2020 14:16:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

BUT UK Motorways DO have signs saying NO PEDESTRIANS.

Just as well the pedestrian was wearing a face covering. Think about all the added hassle if he hadn't.

MrBrightside  
#20 Posted : 31 July 2020 14:34:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

This clip sums it up pretty well! :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAnGYfnFz9I

Note: It's Friday, it's warm and just a bit of fun

Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 01 August 2020 20:03:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post
BUT UK Motorways DO have signs saying NO PEDESTRIANS.

Only on the vehicular entrances (slip road signage) not along their length where these numpties appear

Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 01 August 2020 20:03:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post
BUT UK Motorways DO have signs saying NO PEDESTRIANS.

Only on the vehicular entrances (slip road signage) not along their length where these numpties appear

peter gotch  
#23 Posted : 02 August 2020 16:50:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

True and I am not about to argue for a sign every X metres!

But Motorways are also designed with physical barriers to prevent accidental access. Might be only post and wire fences in rural locations, but it's still something that requires deliberate action to get past.

Roundtuit  
#24 Posted : 02 August 2020 21:07:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Yet we do not permit natural selection - instead the authorities choose to incovenience hundreds for hours for the sake of the one who climbs the fence either at the side of a motorway as a short-cut or the anti-suicide fencing over most major roundabouts.

Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 02 August 2020 21:07:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Yet we do not permit natural selection - instead the authorities choose to incovenience hundreds for hours for the sake of the one who climbs the fence either at the side of a motorway as a short-cut or the anti-suicide fencing over most major roundabouts.

achrn  
#26 Posted : 03 August 2020 09:04:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

BUT UK Motorways DO have signs saying NO PEDESTRIANS.

No they don't.

They used to have that little essay about no pedestrians, horse-drawn vehicles, mopeds under something power, but that hasn't been in use for decades.  Motorways now generally just have a blue sign with the motorway symbol, and you need to know pedestrains aren't permitted.

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A Kurdziel on 03/08/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#27 Posted : 04 August 2020 10:46:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

When I did my first health and safety qualification, we had one lecturer whose favourite saying was 'people are not stupid, they're just trying to get the job done'. We all appreciated what he was saying then. However, as time has gone on, with the incidents I have seen and heard about, the only logical explanation I could find as to why some people did stupid things was that they were actually stupid. I am sure anyone working in hospital A&E departments would agree. The multitude of objects that people insert into their backsides is a case in point. A 'reasonable' person might ask why they did it, why did it seem a good idea, but nevertheless they did it. Inadvisable amounts of alcohol could explain some of these occurences, but not all. We are therefore left with the inevitable conclusion that some people are simply stupid.

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CptBeaky on 04/08/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#28 Posted : 04 August 2020 11:41:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

A co-"worker" once told me that it would be great if we blew up the moon, since it would then be daylight all the time. Some people sre stupid.

A Kurdziel  
#29 Posted : 04 August 2020 12:53:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I am sorry but if you really think that people are that stupid; ie they cannot learn, you shouldn’t really bother with H&S because it becomes utterly pointless. Most people I have come across generally want to do the right thing. What is holding them back is that they don’t know what the right thing is or the employer makes it difficult for them to actually do because they tend to load lots of unnecessary burden etc on what is usually as simple task. In addition when people talk about risk they often take into account factors which you would never include in the risk assessment. For example an operative might well balance the controls which they know should be applied with their own desire to get home early on a Friday.

We tend to fill people with horror stories of what goes wrong but in reality 90% of the time they get away with it. Just because you don’t clip in a lanyard does not guarantee that you will fall to your death. People balance those things out in their head at that moment in time. The point of risk assessment is really to get them to reflect on the bigger picture and to make them see that perhaps getting home a bit early is not worth the risk.  Reason’s Swiss cheese model is brilliant not because it explains how accidents happen but more importantly why they don’t always happen: essentially everything has to align up for the incident to occur.    

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CptBeaky on 05/08/2020(UTC), billstrak on 13/08/2020(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#30 Posted : 05 August 2020 09:18:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Fair point and I consider myself suitably chatised. I think we are just using hyperbole. What I should say is that "some people have a lot less sense than you would think possible"

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biker1 on 05/08/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#31 Posted : 05 August 2020 09:39:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Fair point and I consider myself suitably chatised. I think we are just using hyperbole. What I should say is that "some people have a lot less sense than you would think possible"

I understand that the German for common sense is "gesunder menschenverstand" which is literally 'healthy people's understanding', or something like it.  I think 'healthy sense' would have been a better phrase to adopt than 'common sense', since (as many people have observed) it often is not as common as you might hope.

biker1  
#32 Posted : 05 August 2020 09:42:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

Fair point and I consider myself suitably chatised. I think we are just using hyperbole. What I should say is that "some people have a lot less sense than you would think possible"

Brilliant. The best description I have come across.
Jason90212992  
#33 Posted : 08 August 2020 06:02:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jason90212992

Brian, thanks for the sharing.

Is hard to comments as I have yet to visit the place. If such incidents has been repeated for several times and is unlikely such "risks" deem to be common sense. What is common to you may not be common to someone as they may not have the "knowledge and experience". 

Hence, whether to put up safety railing or barricades will have to assess the situation case by case basis. I do not agree with "common sense", rather we have to inculcate "situation and safety awareness" to our kids and guide them along the way. 

peter gotch  
#34 Posted : 08 August 2020 10:46:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Jason

The relevant case law is summarised in Chapter 5 of 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guide-to-public-safety-on-flood-and-coastal-risk-management-sites

As you will see key cases date back to the first decade of the 20th Century and would be likely to be as authoritative in Singapore (or other places where common law has been inherited from Britain) as in the UK.

P

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