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achrn  
#1 Posted : 29 September 2020 14:34:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

(Probably only relevant to construction)

The CLC look to me like they are gold-plating: they've updated their face covering guidance again, and it now includes "In line with Government guidance on  premises providing hospitality, face coverings must be worn in canteens except when seated at a table to eat or drink." http://www.constructionleadershipcouncil.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/The-Use-of-Face-Coverings-in-Construction-during-Coronavirus.pdf

I think this is over-stating - they link to a gov.uk page and that includes (as somewhere you must wear a face covering) "premises providing hospitality (bars, pubs, restaurants, cafes), except when seated at a table to eat or drink", but I don't think being somewhere people eat and drink necessarily brings a place into this scope.

As far as I can see the 'must' arises from SI 2020/791 The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) Regulations 2020 and about half-a-dozen subsequent amendments, notably 2020/1026 which introduces "Restaurants, including restaurants and dining rooms in hotels or members’ clubs.", "Bars, including bars in hotels or members’ clubs." and "Public houses".

A works canteen, to my mind, is none of these things, and accordingly there is no statute saying you must wear face coverings in a construction site canteen – the statute doesn’t actually say ’premises providing hospitality’, it says restaurants, bars, pubs.

Have I missed something?

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 29 September 2020 15:17:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wouldn't consider a works canteen in normal use has anything to do with hospitality but this latest missive is typical of the current race to the bottom confusing guidance and legislation.

Stand by for the next version stating anyone wishing to enter the works canteen will be denied access if they do not scan the NHS QR code upon entry, and those who can will be sacked for breaching the site rule of no mobiles.

thanks 8 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 30/09/2020(UTC), peter gotch on 30/09/2020(UTC), chris42 on 01/10/2020(UTC), Corbett35284 on 01/10/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 30/09/2020(UTC), peter gotch on 30/09/2020(UTC), chris42 on 01/10/2020(UTC), Corbett35284 on 01/10/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 29 September 2020 15:17:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wouldn't consider a works canteen in normal use has anything to do with hospitality but this latest missive is typical of the current race to the bottom confusing guidance and legislation.

Stand by for the next version stating anyone wishing to enter the works canteen will be denied access if they do not scan the NHS QR code upon entry, and those who can will be sacked for breaching the site rule of no mobiles.

thanks 8 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 30/09/2020(UTC), peter gotch on 30/09/2020(UTC), chris42 on 01/10/2020(UTC), Corbett35284 on 01/10/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 30/09/2020(UTC), peter gotch on 30/09/2020(UTC), chris42 on 01/10/2020(UTC), Corbett35284 on 01/10/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 30 September 2020 08:40:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Roundtuit

Your mistake is to over think this so stop thinking and just do as you are told…black is white, up is down, guidance is the law, what Boris mumbles during an interview is the word of God.

Easy now!

 

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 30/09/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#5 Posted : 30 September 2020 10:52:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

OK, now I've found SI 2020/1008, the regulations formerly known as the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Hospitality Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020, but as of SI 2020/1046 they’ve dropped the h-word.  That is, there was previously a SI referring to ‘hospitality’ undertakings.

These arguably do make a site canteen a hospitality venue – they say “In these Regulations “business” includes any undertaking, whether carried on for profit or not;” and defines relevant business variously (for each regulation), but the definitions include “a “relevant business” is a business which provides food or drink for consumption on its premises.” (regulation 2).  I note that the regulation applies to “a business of a public house, café, restaurant or other relevant business”, emphasise OR – so it’s any business that provides food or drink for consumption in the premises, apparently. Given the obligation to provide workers with drinking water, it’s probably any business.

I assume the cretins didn’t intend this, otherwise they would have just said ‘any business’, but that’s what the law says.

However, from what I can see of the regs, the requirements on such a relevant business (e.g. an office with a coffee machine) is only to make sure that there are suitable gaps between tables.  The face masks requirement is in reg 2A and refers to the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) Regulations 2020, (SI 2020/791 plus a load of amendments) and that’s back where I began, explicitly listing restaurants, bars, pubs. Which don’t cover a site canteen or an office coffee machine.

So I still think the CLC are over-stating the regs, though I was wrong and apparently any place providing food or drink is a hospitality undertaking.

A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 30 September 2020 11:10:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

In normal times there are various parliamentary committees who review this legislation and make sure that it complies with the primary acts and it is not ultra vires. The also make sure that it is a reasonable application of the powers under this legislation. This doesn’t seem to be happening, because its an “emergency”

Furthermore if you are victim of any of this sort of regulation you are entitled to challenge it in the courts via a judicial review but the courts system is now near collapse and the “cretins” as “achrn  “ so eloquently put it, are trying to limit people’s access to this by making people pay for the privilege of daring to challenge the government. No wonder nobody trusts them.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Kate on 30/09/2020(UTC)
HSSnail  
#7 Posted : 30 September 2020 11:27:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

sorry have not read all the comments (My head hurts today) but is this the same legisaltion that said the Bar in the Palace of Westminster could open after 10:00pm aand serve alchol s it was actualy a canteen!

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 30 September 2020 13:03:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The palace of Westminster has many exemptions to the rules imposed on the general public to the benefit of the elected - including a works canteen serving alcohol.

Still could always go to Beaconsfield Services on the M40 where the bar is also apparently excluded.

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 30 September 2020 13:03:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The palace of Westminster has many exemptions to the rules imposed on the general public to the benefit of the elected - including a works canteen serving alcohol.

Still could always go to Beaconsfield Services on the M40 where the bar is also apparently excluded.

A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 30 September 2020 13:12:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The Palace of Westminster is essentially and literally a law unto itself. Normal public acts do not apply to unless it is specifically mentioned including Health and Safety at Work Act. I was told this by someone who works there as a H&S person. The simple fact is if this building was part of the normal world it would have been condemned and demolished years ago but instead it has been kept going decades beyond its natural life. It is only now that it is literally collapsing before the members eyes that they are actually starting to talk about doing something about it. The bars and others catering facilities by convention remain open as long as the members are in session and want a drink.

Kate  
#11 Posted : 30 September 2020 14:24:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Well it is notoriously full of asbestos, mice, dodgy electrics and disconcerting sanitation.

A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 30 September 2020 14:43:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

Well it is notoriously full of asbestos, mice, dodgy electrics and disconcerting sanitation.

…and cretins according to Achrn. As former member of the civil service I cannot possibly comment

HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 01 October 2020 09:04:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

OK back to the question possed - we dont have a canteen so not spent a lot of time with this one - but is it really hospitality? For me its just part of the workplace and coverd by the "covid secure" status of the workplace - 2 m seperation etc as stated in the guidance.

It was my undertsanding that the face masks were required in areas where you meet people you dont routinley come into contact with and where the 2m could not be ensured.

CptBeaky  
#14 Posted : 01 October 2020 09:11:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Surely to "hospitality" there has to be a person serving within this area? I ask because we have, what we class as, a canteen. It is a large room with tables and chairs (now separated 2m from each other) with microwaves, kettles, vending machines etc.

It is completely self service, with hand sanitiser placed all over the room and regular clean downs. This is more of a break room than a canteen, but should we still insist they wear masks? If so, I can't wait for the kick back on this one.....

achrn  
#15 Posted : 01 October 2020 12:53:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I agree that an ordinary workplace in no way could be confused for a restaurant etc.  However, as quoted up the thread, the law says that “a “relevant business” is a business which provides food or drink for consumption on its premises.”

That's what it says.  That's a cut-and-paste quote.

However, that particular regulation only requires that you have adequate space between tables.

I haven't found a law that requires masks in a works canteen or office-with-coffee-machine, but the legislation is such a mess, with so many revisions, and so many differently overlapping SIs that I don't feel confident there isn't something else somewhere.

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 02/10/2020(UTC)
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