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NicoleJ15  
#1 Posted : 05 October 2020 13:05:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NicoleJ15

Good afternoon all,

I manage H&S in a pharmaceutical warehousing and storage company over 8 sites. During the Covid outbreak we have managed to stay open and successfully manage all areas with no confirmed cases to date despite having 1500 employees. 

Our protocols and restrictions are meticulous and so far all employees work well keeping to our requirements. However, we have identified some pinch points such as locker rooms and toilet areas where at shift change over time, despite we have a 10 minute gap from employees leaving and employees coming in.

So my question I have been asked by senior management is:

If we were to request for it to be mandatory for employees to wear face coverings (not masks) in locker rooms and at shift change over time only (there is around 60 people leaving at this time) is it my company's responsibility to supply masks such as the surgical type, or can we expect persons to bring their own like you would for the supermarket. I am looking at this from a legal perspective more than anything.

Your help in any information from other professionals is much appreciated 

Mr Curious  
#2 Posted : 05 October 2020 13:20:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr Curious

Good afternoon. From a legal perspective it is not PPE and it is currently notmandatory to wear face covering in the warehouse. I also work as a HS manager in a larger redistribution centre and what we do is to provide the employees the optio to wear a mask where they request. We have FFP2 face masks availability for all and of course, they could use a face covering (including face shields that we also offer). Further to that, the company has provided the employees with reusable, non-branded face masks. We encourge colleagues to wear them but to be honest, since it is not mandatory they chose not to. If you had positive cases and you were in the "red zone" with HSE visiting sites, I'd implement company policy to support the use of face coverings.

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 05 October 2020 13:24:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

If you supply them then you get to control the "standard".

It is only PPE/RPE where regulation specifically states supply Free of Charge but then the debacle of face coevrings is an emerging situation.

If you let people choose what a face covering means to them then you will end up with a myriad of potentially unwanted devices (especially in Scotland where a visor does not fit the regulatory definition of a face covering).

Others have noted that choosing the "surgical" style increases plastic pollution.

Do remember to consider what you will do for those who are unable to wear a close fitting mask.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 05/10/2020(UTC), Kate on 05/10/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 05 October 2020 13:24:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

If you supply them then you get to control the "standard".

It is only PPE/RPE where regulation specifically states supply Free of Charge but then the debacle of face coevrings is an emerging situation.

If you let people choose what a face covering means to them then you will end up with a myriad of potentially unwanted devices (especially in Scotland where a visor does not fit the regulatory definition of a face covering).

Others have noted that choosing the "surgical" style increases plastic pollution.

Do remember to consider what you will do for those who are unable to wear a close fitting mask.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 05/10/2020(UTC), Kate on 05/10/2020(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#5 Posted : 05 October 2020 14:02:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

On a purely practical note I would say if you want them to wear it then you should supply it. 

NicoleJ15  
#6 Posted : 05 October 2020 14:21:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NicoleJ15

Thanks all

That is much appreciated. At present we are just toying with ideas. We have P2's, surgicals and visors avaliable and so far we have only issued them for close contact training that we can not manage to keep 2m due to requiring looking at a monitor or RDT for training purposes only.

We are cautious of implementing face masks/coverings as 'mandatory' in these areas such as locker rooms and then us being unable to maintain supply due to how many we would need to issue daily, especially as surgical masks are required more in healthcare settings and we would need 1500+ a day, 7 days a week

I guess if we encourage the use of 'face coverings' in smaller, closed areas, this would then not be mandatory and be more of a required suggestion. 

Mr.Curious - Could I ask on the point of issuing reusable face coverings. Did you hit any health regulation snags on making sure people wash them correctly, killing of any bacteria etc? 

liamarchie  
#7 Posted : 05 October 2020 15:36:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
liamarchie

If you're making it mandatory for that setting/scenario i would say the company should be providing them. There is no guidance saying wear surgical style face coverings, in fact i think its discouraged outside of healthcare activities so i would go down the re-usable route.We are a similar company to you, and currently have face coverings mandatory in all communal areas on site in response to a rise in cases in the locality. The coverings are provided by us with the stipulation people can wear their on face coverings if more comfortable. These are washable and reusable. Afterall there are no standards for face coverings anyway.

Not sure on the legal aspect of it, but you're going to create issues with compliance and culture if you dont supply it, and if you do supply it gives the added bonus that it will improve employer - employee relations and paint the employer in a more positive light.

The BAT  
#8 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:04:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
The BAT

With the government now making face coverings, compulsory in communal areas in the workplace, does that now fall onto the employer to provide?

We have provided company branded coverings, but at £2 a covering for 2000 employees, plus regular replacement due to loss, this is costing a lot of money.

If it's not PPE can we charge or insist employees bring their own?

stevedm  
#9 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:22:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

You need to consult your in house legal team or external legal respource for your answewr...however it will likely say that the requirement can be put in place under the 'working safely guidance' applicable to England especially in the close contact situation you describe...but it will be your risk assessment that will be the legal requirement here...so good old consultation and talking to people is the way to go...charge for it? probably not contribution that goes to charity is an option... 

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:44:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: The BAT Go to Quoted Post
With the government now making face coverings, compulsory in communal areas in the workplace

Must have missed that update to regulation - anyone know which Satutory Instrument article this falls under?

They do not appear as a "relevant place" Schedule 1 of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) Regulations 2020

Nor do they appear on the last update (24th September) of HM Gov guidance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

I would be wary of charging an employee to come to work - there are only a few limited items which an employer can legally automatically deduct from wages e.g. Tax, Student Loan.. - anything else is always by the employees consent.

The scientists behind this drive to face coverings should start by getting a set standard which provides demonstrable protection to the wearer - then with a standard and a level of protection the use of a face coverings can become a little bit more than a placebo and trigger to the angry mob.

I must confess to beginning to descend in to Mask Rage only not against those not wearing a face covering (I would not presume to question absence) but the morons who seem incapable of grasping the concept that the device without an exhaust valve should be simultaneously covering both the nose and mouth to be of benefit.

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:44:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: The BAT Go to Quoted Post
With the government now making face coverings, compulsory in communal areas in the workplace

Must have missed that update to regulation - anyone know which Satutory Instrument article this falls under?

They do not appear as a "relevant place" Schedule 1 of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) Regulations 2020

Nor do they appear on the last update (24th September) of HM Gov guidance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

I would be wary of charging an employee to come to work - there are only a few limited items which an employer can legally automatically deduct from wages e.g. Tax, Student Loan.. - anything else is always by the employees consent.

The scientists behind this drive to face coverings should start by getting a set standard which provides demonstrable protection to the wearer - then with a standard and a level of protection the use of a face coverings can become a little bit more than a placebo and trigger to the angry mob.

I must confess to beginning to descend in to Mask Rage only not against those not wearing a face covering (I would not presume to question absence) but the morons who seem incapable of grasping the concept that the device without an exhaust valve should be simultaneously covering both the nose and mouth to be of benefit.

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:52:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Just checking in Scottish guidance  https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-phase-3-staying-safe-and-protecting-others/pages/face-coverings/#mandatory and came across this corker under exemptions:

"you cannot apply a covering and wear it in the proper manner safely and consistently"

That covers about half the people seen in the supermarket over the weekend.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 13/10/2020(UTC), Kate on 13/10/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:52:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Just checking in Scottish guidance  https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-phase-3-staying-safe-and-protecting-others/pages/face-coverings/#mandatory and came across this corker under exemptions:

"you cannot apply a covering and wear it in the proper manner safely and consistently"

That covers about half the people seen in the supermarket over the weekend.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 13/10/2020(UTC), Kate on 13/10/2020(UTC)
stevedm  
#14 Posted : 13 October 2020 09:51:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
The scientists behind this drive to face coverings should start by getting a set standard which provides demonstrable protection to the wearer - then with a standard and a level of protection the use of a face coverings can become a little bit more than a placebo and trigger to the angry mob.

In some countries this would be tantamount to inciting a riot...I think you need to calm down a wee bit and look objectively at what you read before you have a heart attack...

stevedm  
#15 Posted : 13 October 2020 09:58:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Face coverings have never been the one control measure or promoted as such by any scientist...it can in some cases give a false sense of security to reduce social distancing...which is not ideal...but still the legal position is your risk assessment on what to provide or not in the workplace and compliance with the requirements follows that...

For information this was published back in April this year by EUCDC

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/COVID-19-use-face-masks-community.pdf

stevedm  
#16 Posted : 13 October 2020 10:10:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

to answer the OP...we have an assessment process which looks at each person risk for HCID..based on that risk is the requirement for testing...however the testing is not as reliable as you would like..reference:

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2516

The BAT  
#17 Posted : 13 October 2020 14:31:04(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
The BAT

The government in Scotland have made it mandatory in Scotland to wear masks in corridors and communal areas in the workplace.

My issue is, they are not PPE, therefore who supplies them?

If it's the company, one size doesn't fit all, but how do you enforce compliance, if it does not come under PPE regs.

I would rather the government didn't make this decision without telling businesses how to cost it and police it, but they have.

I'm inclined to issue one to each employee at our cost, but then isist they buy their own if they don't take care of it or they don't like the style.

2000 employees imagine how many diffent face shapes that is.

Our risk assessment onlt states the use of face masks if employees work in close proximity for more than 15 minutes, not passing in a corridor.

Roundtuit  
#18 Posted : 14 October 2020 15:40:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/m803308-Face-Masks--please-help#post803308

Face masks in Scottish work places is also being discussed in more detail in the post above

Roundtuit  
#19 Posted : 14 October 2020 15:40:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/m803308-Face-Masks--please-help#post803308

Face masks in Scottish work places is also being discussed in more detail in the post above

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