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SammyK  
#1 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:33:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SammyK

Good Morning all,

The legislation changed in Scotland on Friday stating that you now must wear masks/coverings when you are within your work place and in communal areas. We all know this will be coming at some point in the rest of the UK. To that end, I am trying to source more comfortable (if there's such a thing) face masks- cotton for staff. The surgical masks are not environmentally friedly and not cost effective. Does anyone know, if we provide cotton face masks (as an option) to the workforce, do they have to be up to a certain standard- legally? I know they don't ahve to be if you're out and about etc. We are not a medical faciltiy.

Thanks for reading! Sam

stevedm  
#2 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:41:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

I tried to find the specific document but these links from the EU CDC should help you decide...non-medical face masks can be made of anything paper, textile etc...so so long as it is comfortable there isn't a problem..there is some guidance in the 'using face masks in the community' link below that should help you...

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/infographic-using-face-masks-community

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/using-face-masks-community-reducing-covid-19-transmission

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/seasonal-influenza/prevention-and-control/personal-protective-measures

SammyK  
#3 Posted : 13 October 2020 08:51:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SammyK

thank you so much Steve, I will have a look. Sam

Kate  
#4 Posted : 13 October 2020 10:01:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I thought the legislation in Scotland might have changed to say this but so far I had failed to find it and concluded this was just guidance masquerading as law.  I will go and have another look.

Or have you got a link / reference to this?

It's so hard to keep up ...

Kate  
#5 Posted : 13 October 2020 10:09:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

As far as I can tell the legislation in Scotland is still just this.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/318/schedule/made

I don't find anything more recent.

stevedm  
#6 Posted : 13 October 2020 10:14:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

yep...that is the amendment to the main reg...:

A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 13 October 2020 10:51:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Don’t know about Scotland but the legal definition of face covering in England is still – “a face covering  means a covering of any type which covers a person’s nose and mouth;”  no standard no technical specification nothing just something that covers your face and mouth. One question that is not clear is if those plastic face shields count. The evidence that they prevent the spread of virus is fairly weak to non-existent.

In addition, if the government were to insist that in every workplace everybody wears a face covering, how would they enforce it?  How would you establish if someone was exempt and of course just because you are exempt does not mean they are either immune to covid 19 or guaranteed not to be a carrier on the germ?

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
A Parfrey on 16/10/2020(UTC)
Kate  
#8 Posted : 13 October 2020 11:08:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

In Scotland it is very slightly more specific.  A face covering is a covering of any type (other than a face shield) which covers a person’s nose and mouth,

SammyK  
#9 Posted : 13 October 2020 11:13:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SammyK

Hi Kate, I have only read on an official website once, annoyingly I can't find it now but it did take some scrolling. Please find this link with info- I know it's a newspaper sorry! my colleagues in Scotland have said they heard it in one of her briefings. 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/you-must-wear-face-mask-22811642

Sam 

achrn  
#10 Posted : 13 October 2020 11:34:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I can't find these supposed new regs.

https://www.gov.scot/news/new-moves-to-stop-covid-19-spread/ is the government announcement of the new short-duration measures, and it doesn't mention a new requirement to wear face coverings in workplaces.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/318/contents/made seems to be the law for the new measures and it doesn't mention them either (to my reading).  In fact the schedule positively says that the requirement to wear face coverinsg does NOT apply to works canteens: https://www.legislation....i/2020/318/schedule/made says "Places where face coverings must be worn ... cafes, except workplace canteens,"

How sure are you of these new measures?

Kate  
#11 Posted : 13 October 2020 11:57:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Sam, I also thought it might be law which was why I had already gone looking for it, so you're not alone.

I think this has been announced, but as guidance not as law.

The guidance says where you are "expected" to wear a face covering and where "by law" you must - two different things:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-phase-3-staying-safe-and-protecting-others/pages/face-coverings/

chris.packham  
#12 Posted : 13 October 2020 12:29:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

For me the key issue is the quality of the face covering. If this is intended to prevent my virus emissions from reaching and possibly infecting others presumably it must be of a certain quality. Would a face covering made, as has been suggested, from paper or possibly from an old T-shirt fit. Unfortunately there is no standard for face coverings not, as far as I can ascertain, any validated test method. So at present it is a bit like saying there are no standards for PPE to protect the wearer. Just make one yourself out of whatever you have handy. I don't think that responsible persons would consider that acceptable, so why should the aid to preventing others from becoming infected be any different? Why hasn't someone (the Government?) developed a test for effectiveness and published this. How else will I know that the face mask that I have just purchased is fit for purpose?

preveli  
#13 Posted : 13 October 2020 13:37:04(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
preveli

It was in the first minsters speech on the 7 October (link below)

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-update-first-ministers-speech-7-october-2020/

the paragraph we have acted on is:- 

"It is also important because we want these restrictions to be temporary that we use the next two weeks to prepare, protect and prevent - to further strengthen our resilience and our ability to live alongside this virus. So I can confirm over the next period we will also take the following steps.

Firstly, we will introduce regulations to extend the mandatory use of face coverings in indoor communal settings - this will include, for example, staff canteens and corridors in workplaces."

We've issued 3 reuseable face coverings to our branch staff together with guidance how many times they can be washed and at what temperature.

Edited by user 13 October 2020 13:40:02(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Kate on 13/10/2020(UTC), achrn on 13/10/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#14 Posted : 13 October 2020 19:20:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: preveli Go to Quoted Post

It was in the first minsters speech on the 7 October (link below)

Looks like she / they changed their minds then, because the regs cited above appear to be the regs that implement the measures in that speech, and they explicitly say the oppositte in the schedule.

I wouldn't implement measures on the basis of what a politician says they are going to do.

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Kate on 14/10/2020(UTC)
Kate  
#15 Posted : 14 October 2020 06:52:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

To be absolutely sure, I've now looked at the unfiltered list of all Scottish statutory instruments on any topic, and the only ones introduced since the one cited above are about road closures.

I will keep checking though.

Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 14 October 2020 10:10:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Could of course depend on how you read S.S.I. 2020 No. 318:

Requirement to take measures to minimise risk of exposure to coronavirus 17. (1) A person who is responsible for a place of worship, carrying on a business or providing a service must take (b) all other measures which are reasonably practicable to minimise the risk of the incidence and spread of coronavirus on the premises, for example measures which limit close face to face interaction and maintain hygiene such as (vi) providing, or requiring the use of, personal protective equipment,

Guidance on minimising exposure to coronavirus 19. (1) A person who is responsible for a place of worship, carrying on a business or providing a service must have regard to guidance issued by the Scottish Ministers about measures which should be taken in accordance with regulation 17(1)(b) relating to its premises, business or service. (2) Guidance issued by the Scottish Ministers may— (a) make different provision for different cases or descriptions of case, (b) incorporate (by reference or transposition) guidance, codes of practice or other documents published by another person (for example, a trade association, a body representing members of an industry or a trade union).

28.(1) These Regulations expire at 0600 on 26 October 2020.

When is PPE not PPE?

When is guidance not guidance?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 14/10/2020(UTC), Kate on 14/10/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 14 October 2020 10:10:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Could of course depend on how you read S.S.I. 2020 No. 318:

Requirement to take measures to minimise risk of exposure to coronavirus 17. (1) A person who is responsible for a place of worship, carrying on a business or providing a service must take (b) all other measures which are reasonably practicable to minimise the risk of the incidence and spread of coronavirus on the premises, for example measures which limit close face to face interaction and maintain hygiene such as (vi) providing, or requiring the use of, personal protective equipment,

Guidance on minimising exposure to coronavirus 19. (1) A person who is responsible for a place of worship, carrying on a business or providing a service must have regard to guidance issued by the Scottish Ministers about measures which should be taken in accordance with regulation 17(1)(b) relating to its premises, business or service. (2) Guidance issued by the Scottish Ministers may— (a) make different provision for different cases or descriptions of case, (b) incorporate (by reference or transposition) guidance, codes of practice or other documents published by another person (for example, a trade association, a body representing members of an industry or a trade union).

28.(1) These Regulations expire at 0600 on 26 October 2020.

When is PPE not PPE?

When is guidance not guidance?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 14/10/2020(UTC), Kate on 14/10/2020(UTC)
S Duchnowski  
#18 Posted : 14 October 2020 10:33:04(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
S Duchnowski

As of yet there is no change, despite the confusion issued during the update last week. I found the following yesterday after coming into a storm of emails surrounding the issue.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-update-first-ministers-speech-12-october-2020/

Skip to 06:00 and Nicola Sturgeon mentions extension later this week, so in essence currently not in place or required. Good idea to get ahead of the game I suppose, but at present we've taken no enforcement action.

Hope this helps to clear the waters, arther than muddy them further. 

Edited by user 14 October 2020 10:33:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

peter gotch  
#19 Posted : 14 October 2020 10:47:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

To try and answer (but possibly fail) two questions raised by Roundtuit!

"When is PPE not PPE?"

The Scottish Statutory Instrument is made by the Ministers under their powers under the Coronavirus Act 2020 "and other powers", but they don't have powers to make Regulations under HSWA, as occupational health and safety is not devolved. 

This means that there is no clear link to "the relevant statutory provisions" as defined in HSWA and thence PPE needs to be interpreted according to the Oxford English Dictionary and not as defined in the PPE at Work Regulations, unless it is defined in subsidiary legislation to the Coronavirus Act 2020 that is applicable in Scotland. (Not defined in the 2020 Act).

"When is guidance not guidance?"

The wording of S.S.I 2020 No 318 appears to be such as to enable the Scottish Ministers the power to accord guidance a status equivalent to that in an Approved Code of Practice approved in accordance with the provisions of  HSWA, such that (like the Highway Code) if you don't do it then you are in breach of law. 

Except that the wording appears to more in line with the Highway Code as with an ACOP there is the alternative of doing something that is equally or more effective to enable legal compliance.

That's my take on it BUT I stand to be corrected!!

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Kate on 14/10/2020(UTC), Roundtuit on 14/10/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#20 Posted : 15 October 2020 12:14:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I see the BBC reports that Nicola Sturgeon has today announced that more face-covering regulations are coming:

"Addressing a virtual meeting of the Scottish Parliament, Nicola Sturgeon said Scotland was at a "critical moment" and "difficult decisions" had to be made.

...

"She also announced new rules on face coverings.

"They must be worn in workplace canteens when individuals are not seated at a table from Friday."

I don't find this on the Scottish government website, or in any SSI yet.

Edited by user 15 October 2020 12:15:08(UTC)  | Reason: spilling

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Kate on 15/10/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#21 Posted : 15 October 2020 13:35:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

I don't find this on the Scottish government website, or in any SSI yet.

Now it has turned up: https://www.gov.scot/pub...-speech-15-october-2020/

"I indicated to Parliament last week our intention to introduce new regulations on face coverings. I can confirm that regulations are being  laid today and two measures will come into force tomorrow.

...

"However, more significantly, the regulations will bring the rules on wearing face coverings in workplace canteens into line with rules in restaurants and cafes.

"So from tomorrow, anybody in a workplace canteen will have to wear a face covering when they are not seated at a table - for example if they are queueing, or are entering or leaving the canteen or going to the bathroom.

"A further change will take effect on Monday. This will require face coverings to be worn in other communal workplace areas such as corridors."

No SSI yet though, that I can find.

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Kate on 15/10/2020(UTC)
Kate  
#22 Posted : 16 October 2020 07:47:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Still not on legislation.gov.uk yet, but here is another BBC report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54562795

And an update on the Scottish government website (still no sign of actual regs):

https://www.gov.scot/news/covid-19-restrictions-to-remain/

Edited by user 16 October 2020 07:49:33(UTC)  | Reason: Added gov.scot link

Kate  
#23 Posted : 16 October 2020 08:03:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

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achrn on 16/10/2020(UTC), Roundtuit on 16/10/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#24 Posted : 16 October 2020 08:27:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

So what's a "staff room" then is it place where staff hang out eg a mess room or is it a place where staff work ie an office?

achrn  
#25 Posted : 16 October 2020 11:31:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Wowsers what a title:

The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Additional Temporary Measures) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2020

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

So what's a "staff room" then is it place where staff hang out eg a mess room or is it a place where staff work ie an office?

We are interpreting it as not covering the open-plan office area.  I think we will assume that this reg does cover meeting rooms (though at the moment we've said meeting rooms are only for one person at a time - we're only using them like giant phone cubicles currently).

Actually, at the moment our only Scotland office has only one member of staff attending it, and we're telling them they don't need to wear a mask when they are sat all alone in the office.

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