Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Gemstone008  
#1 Posted : 17 September 2021 10:09:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gemstone008

Appreciate views on Fire Strategies and whether a building (non-dwelling) is required to have one in place. If the strategy cannot be found, does one need to be completed retrospectively under the RRO?  The building has a detailed fire risk assessment in place and has only been completed recently.  Would this not suffice?

bigpub  
#2 Posted : 17 September 2021 10:41:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigpub

The FRA is a legal requirement. The strategy depends upon many factors such as routes out etc. We have strategys due to some of our occupiers being unable to walk very well. You would need to consider walking aids and routes out. I would do both but the problem is the communication of these stratagies. Also, once the staregy is in place. You would nedd to test it with a drill. You would need to consider changes of staff and shift patterns.

James.M  
#3 Posted : 17 September 2021 11:09:02(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
James.M

The Fire Stratagy is a really useful tool, when it comes to understanding total capacity per square footage, escape routes available and the means of keeping all users safe. It provides allot of information which can be used for various reasons and is tailored specifically to the property.

It is also a legal requirement under Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005

A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 17 September 2021 12:22:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A fire strategy is not a legal requirement under Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) order 2005. The Fire Risk Assessment  is. The strategy is a description of how you will make the requirements of the risk assessment a reality. This especially  important in larger organizations with possible multiple sites: you need something to standardise practice across the whole business. For example, your FRA might stay that some people need suitable training. The strategy document is where you describe  what actually suitable training is.

Messey  
#5 Posted : 17 September 2021 23:28:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Be careful here as I have had one enforcement agency request a strategy which - in there words - was required by Article 11 of the FSO which states:

-------------------

Fire safety arrangements

11.—(1) The responsible person must make and give effect to such arrangements as are appropriate, having regard to the size of his undertaking and the nature of its activities, for the effective planning, organisation, control, monitoring and review of the preventive and protective measures.

--------------------------

But I was able to convince the Inspecting Officer that my FRA document was detailed and contained all of the elements of effective planning, organisation, control, monitoring and review of the preventive and protective measures within its pages. He wasnt a happy bunny and said it was his enforcemnt agency's policy to seek a strategy for larger premises.

 I suggested that he write to me with details of that policy as I felt Aticle 11 was covered within the FRA and was reluctant to spend hours repeating the information on a duplicate document - especially when IMHO it was not required by the legislation

That was two months before lockdown. I did not receive an e-mail but have heard some enforcement authorities now want considerably more detail that the average PAS79 provides for

thanks 1 user thanked Messey for this useful post.
aud on 22/09/2021(UTC)
Kate  
#6 Posted : 18 September 2021 14:22:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I'm not sure that "fire strategy document" means the same thing to everyone.

What it means to me is a document produced during the design of a building which states things such as what escape distances have been allowed for and why, where the exits are, what the maximum occupancy should be, what the compartmentation is, what kind of lifts are to be installed and so on.

This then forms part of the input to the fire risk assessment once the building is being occupied.  What the strategy (as a design document) doesn't and can't cover, but the risk assessment can, is what is actually going on in the building (storage of flammables, ignition sources, maintenance and so on).

The type of document I've described above wouldn't be retrospective as it is part of the design, not a justification after the build.

firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 18 September 2021 20:13:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

To fail to plan is to plan to fail.

I suppose everyone has heard that by now.

A Strategy is simply a Plan and depends on everything to do with the premises.  It could be a simple line drawing showing the site with fire exits and routes, fire fighting equipment, assembly point, what do do when discovering a fire etc etc etc.

If a complex premises the Plan needs to be Complex to suit the needs of the occupants with regard to means of escape, what to do in case of emergency, how to do it, what various alarms mean, who are responsible for organising escape etc etc etc.

It may be that a number of Plans are necessary that split the premises into Sections, each with their own Plan.

I could go on but the above are my thoughts, but please don't overcook the Plan.

 

A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 20 September 2021 08:19:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The HSE comes in for a lot of stick but at least  know how to apply the law and do not go off and try to create their own laws, which some enforcers are trying to do,  which as everybody knows is ultra vires. A risk assessment is what is says in the legislation. There is no requirement in the fire safety order for something called a fire strategy. Perhaps they are finding it difficult to work out what an organisation actually does in relation to fire safety and not being very good at auditing they are demanding that that it all be presented to them as a single document call “a fire strategy”  but there is no legal requirement for people to do that. The aim of a risk based approach is that businesses come up with their own systems manage the risk and this includes the documentation.

Strictly speaking there is no need for a document called a Fire Risk Assessment all that is required is that they record “the significant findings of the assessment, including the measures which have been or will be taken by the responsible person pursuant to this Order;” , which is basically  the same as what is required under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations.

What is a concern is that different fire authorities are applying, what are supposed to be the same national rules in different ways.  

 

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
aud on 22/09/2021(UTC)
Messey  
#9 Posted : 20 September 2021 20:01:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

The HSE comes in for a lot of stick but at least  know how to apply the law and do not go off and try to create their own laws, which some enforcers are trying to do,  which as everybody knows is ultra vires. A risk assessment is what is says in the legislation. There is no requirement in the fire safety order for something called a fire strategy. Perhaps they are finding it difficult to work out what an organisation actually does in relation to fire safety and not being very good at auditing they are demanding that that it all be presented to them as a single document call “a fire strategy”  but there is no legal requirement for people to do that. The aim of a risk based approach is that businesses come up with their own systems manage the risk and this includes the documentation.

Strictly speaking there is no need for a document called a Fire Risk Assessment all that is required is that they record “the significant findings of the assessment, including the measures which have been or will be taken by the responsible person pursuant to this Order;” , which is basically  the same as what is required under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations.

What is a concern is that different fire authorities are applying, what are supposed to be the same national rules in different ways.  

Spot on! Some are abusing their authourity and making up as hey go along

It doesnt help that so many enforcers are trained on the PAS 79 FRA report format and get confused thinking that is the only method of recording an FRA

One major enforcing authority (clue, they are not a fire service) wanted a copy of one of my FRAs which I record on a template that I designed.  This template is a hybrid of scores of FRA reports that I 'liberated' when emptying a fire service store room after the digitisation of its records

An Inspecting Officer said my FRA version was not acceptable - even though they accepted that the information recorded far exceeded the legal requirement of 'significant findings'. I entered politely into a debate with this jobsworth and asked if it is not acceptable, does this mean you will be issuing an enforcement notice?, adding that I look forward to heading up an appeal

He then revealed that my FRA format didnt fit well withing a recording system his employer were using. I queried whether the inadequacies of their system would warrant legal action against me and my employer - and he said he would think about it

To be a pain in the backside, I sent a paper version of the FRA in to the enforcing authority (they asked for an electronic one) and asked for a receipt. That's the last I heard from him  :)

thanks 1 user thanked Messey for this useful post.
aud on 22/09/2021(UTC)
stevedm  
#10 Posted : 21 September 2021 13:46:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Fire Strategy is about the fire safety design under R38 Building Regs...which should be handed over to the duty holder...to boil it down  - Fire RA is post occupation of building,  Fire Strategy is developed in the design, pre-occupation...

thanks 1 user thanked stevedm for this useful post.
aud on 22/09/2021(UTC)
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 09 October 2021 11:06:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I had a chat yesterday with a FRS safety officer about an issue in his city, he mentioned I should ask for a copy of the FRA and I asked him about a fire management plan.  He said yes ask for one if there is one.

Users browsing this topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.