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Kate  
#1 Posted : 24 September 2021 10:40:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Current HSE guidance is quite emphatic about many Covid issues being nothing to do with them

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/roadmap-further-guidance.htm

This amused me because it's almost as if they've been listening to Brian about this being public health, not workplace H&S.

Holliday42333  
#2 Posted : 24 September 2021 12:05:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

Brilliant.  Monty Python couldn't have made a film about it its so ludicrus.

So you have the .gov Coronovirus guidance changing to state that Covid-19 is NOW a workplace hazad covered by H&S law and enforced by the HSE.  Then you have the HSE putting out a statement saying that they are not the enforcement body for most of the applicable content of the controls.

You couldn't make it up

A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 24 September 2021 12:27:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Not long after the outbreak  started, I attended an on-line seminar about the response to the covid  pandemic. At the webinar was the Head of Policy at  the HSE. He didn’t exactly embrace the outbreak as being in the remit of his agency. He basically said do what you can it’s mainly guidance…I think that the HSE have been dragged into this and there not really committed to because they know its nothing to do with occupational health and safety and everything to do with public health and protecting communities.  

Holliday42333  
#4 Posted : 24 September 2021 12:40:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

AK; the HSE know that.  We the H&S community (should) know that.

BUT.  .gov started with the whole risk assesment confusion and then stated for the record Covid-19 was a workplace hazard.

(I spent a good section of a day this week being challenged why Covid-19 was a workplace hazard but Flu wasn't)

I've no issue, by the way, with H&S professionals being PART of the solution.  Its just that suggesting we have all the tools in our toolbox isn't going to produce the solutions required if we really want to tackle Covid-19 without waiting for it to fizzle out (good luck if you are old, vulerable or at the wrong end of the luck spectrum).

Got to go, I've just been tasked with purchasing a disinfection tunnel and hand held IR gun [wink]

Kate  
#5 Posted : 24 September 2021 13:50:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I'm intrigued - what was your answer to why Covid is a workplace hazard and flu isn't?

Holliday42333  
#6 Posted : 24 September 2021 13:57:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

I'm intrigued - what was your answer to why Covid is a workplace hazard and flu isn't?

"Because Boris said so"

Seriously, I didn't have a practially understandable answer.  I could only refer them to the .gov guidance and agree that I didn't understand either.

thanks 4 users thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
Kate on 24/09/2021(UTC), A Kurdziel on 24/09/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 24/09/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 27/09/2021(UTC)
HSSnail  
#7 Posted : 24 September 2021 14:18:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

I know lots of my old HSE collegues who have argued that this should never have been H&S based - but unfortuatly Boris like lots of the public now use Health and Safety to catch all and forget its true purpose. All this could have and should have been enacted by Public Health legislation - LA's would have been able to enfoce it everywhere - just like they do food hygiene, and we could have continued to follow the government guidance without being in the mess we are now.

thanks 2 users thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/09/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 24/09/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 24 September 2021 15:27:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Looking forward to the Covid (Public and Workplace Health) (Boris) Regulations 2021.

Fortunately unlikely to apply in Scotland.

P

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/09/2021(UTC)
chris.packham  
#9 Posted : 24 September 2021 15:56:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

For what they are worth here are my thoughts on this debate.

In order for an employer to be able to risk assess and manage a hazard in the workplace it must be possible for them to be able to:

A - establish if it is present in their workplace and its location. It does not take much thought to recognise that with the exception of certain very specific situations, e.g. working with the virus in a laboratory or treating individuals suffering with Covid-19, this is simply not possible.

B - they must also be able to identify when, where and to what degree exposure exists or is a possibility? How?

C - Where their risk assessment identifies a risk that is deemed to require action there must be ways in which – so far as is reasonably practicable – the risk can be managed.

I could argue that to achieve an adequate control of a hazard that cannot be reliably identified, nor the level of exposure quantified, nor the standard of management that can prevent the damage to health defined, would certainly not meet the SFARP criteria and probably shut the operation down.

Obviously this does not absolve an employer from meeting any regulatory/legal requirements imposed on them, if only in their own and the interests of their employees, but we have to live and operate in the real world, not perhaps the one that some in authority seem to believe exists.

thanks 2 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
mihai_qa on 25/09/2021(UTC), peter gotch on 25/09/2021(UTC)
peter gotch  
#10 Posted : 25 September 2021 14:57:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Ah, Chris, but our present "real world" includes lots of OSH professionals who see Covid as something to keep them occupied [and in some cases to allow them to portray themselves as experts] even though in years BC (Before Covid) I never came across many OSH professionals who didn't think they had more than enough to do.

Many, many years BC, in the 1st Century AD, Greek and Roman literati were pointing to the dangers of exposure to asbestos. Just took society about 19 Centuries to start doing something serious about it. Life expectancy was short, so that the OSH practitioners of the Middle Ages were too busy worrying about people falling from height, or collapsing structures, such as those mobile towers used in attacking castles.

stevedm  
#11 Posted : 27 September 2021 14:08:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Interesting topic since I just read through this...

First prosecution from HSE COVID-19 Spot Check programme

First prosecution from HSE COVID-19 Spot Check programme

Following multiple health and safety issues being identified during a proactive COVID spot check at a site in Manchester, a construction contractor has been fined.

On 9 July 2020, a HSE inspector performed a proactive COVID-19 spot check at the construction site in the city.

During the inspection, a host of safety issues were identified including working at height, welfare, COVID-19, site security, and electricity. The principal contractor was served with a Prohibition Notice and two Improvement Notices.

A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 27 September 2021 15:20:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Yes, seen this and mentioned it already (different thread) in this case the defendant I suggest could have  decided to contest  the Covid element of the case but since they were bang to rights for everything else  I suspect they didn’t bother. I can’t see someone being done under H&S laws for just failing to manage Covid because as we all know it’s not health and safety.

PS this judgment does not create a precedent- its not a court of record just a magistrates court.

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