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BenjiVilla  
#1 Posted : 07 December 2021 10:13:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
BenjiVilla

Morning all, after my initial post regarding 'becoming a fire risk assessor with no experience', possibly unsurprisingly, I decided to forget that idea and look into the world of general Health & Safety. I purchased a NEBOSH H & S General e-learning course which I'm currently working through and this process has again got me thinking about possible career paths in H & S, for a complete greenhorn like me. Currently I'm working through NG1 criminal law liabilities and although I understand any responsible H & S advisor should have great kowledge of all applicable laws - I struggle with understanding and remembering details like this and to be honest, it bores me to sleep, which leads me quite eloquently to this question; are there any roles I could aim for in the world of Health & Safety that are more hands-on or practical, without having to know everything about every law etc? 

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 07 December 2021 10:31:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Being a bit of a nerd when I started doing H&S it was the law bit that I found most interesting! Not withstanding that  I soon realised that they way the law is taught in most H&S courses is poor, both in its content(too much over simplification) and its application( basically not explaining why we need to know the legal stuff).  The basic thing we need to get our heads around is the legal meaning of “safe”, which is not necessarily what most people think of as safe. A lot of people think that safe means “no danger” but the law recognises that if that was the case, we could only be “safe” if we stayed in bed and just gave up. Instead “safe” is qualified by things like so far as “reasonably practical” but then what does that mean? So we have to go into cases etc to found what we should be doing. You need to do enough to comply with the law without going overboard and bankrupting your employer. That’s what risk assessment is about but this message keeps being broadcast that risk assessment is easy peasy lemon squeezy but often it’s not and requires delicate balancing act which is where the well trained competent H&S professional comes in.           

BenjiVilla  
#3 Posted : 07 December 2021 10:41:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
BenjiVilla

Putting it in another context might help; what careers in H & S are possible for someone who hasn't got great GCSE's or further education? for someone who struggles understanding complex things like law? etc

What carrers are there other than being a Health & safety advisor? are there any roles where I wouldn't need to deal with or know the relevant laws? 

What careers in H & S are there for a guy who prefers holding a tool rather than writing a book on how to use it?

Evans38004  
#4 Posted : 07 December 2021 11:11:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Evans38004

If you become part of a team then possibly your practical skills will far outweigh the lack of understanding of legal issues.

I had a mate at school - 2 CSE's (woodwork and metal work) - became a brickie, worked on the tools for 20+years, fell off a scaffolding and was pursuaded by his firm to do a degree in H&S during his rehabilitation. Due to his wealth of hands on experience (much more than the lecturers) he flew through the course and gained 1st class honours degree.

Moral, being bad at school does not sopt you from being good at this job

In my 30+ years of H&S management, I've only quoted the legal requirements four or five times - mainly to shut an auditor up.  

I would also suggest that you seek some qualifications and follow the NVQ route that is less focussed on the legal aspects

All the best with your career move

thanks 2 users thanked Evans38004 for this useful post.
BenjiVilla on 07/12/2021(UTC), SammyK on 15/12/2021(UTC)
BenjiVilla  
#5 Posted : 07 December 2021 11:21:41(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
BenjiVilla

Originally Posted by: Evans38004 Go to Quoted Post

If you become part of a team then possibly your practical skills will far outweigh the lack of understanding of legal issues.

I had a mate at school - 2 CSE's (woodwork and metal work) - became a brickie, worked on the tools for 20+years, fell off a scaffolding and was pursuaded by his firm to do a degree in H&S during his rehabilitation. Due to his wealth of hands on experience (much more than the lecturers) he flew through the course and gained 1st class honours degree.

Moral, being bad at school does not sopt you from being good at this job

In my 30+ years of H&S management, I've only quoted the legal requirements four or five times - mainly to shut an auditor up.  

I would also suggest that you seek some qualifications and follow the NVQ route that is less focussed on the legal aspects

All the best with your career move

Thanks Evans38004 that's given me some positivity. Maybe I should of looked at different qualification routes before buying the NEBOSH course, ah well I'm sure I'll manage, I suppose it's a lot to take in for someone who's never worked within the industry and who has been self employed as a car salesman for the past 3 years!

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 07 December 2021 11:29:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Ben

Perhaps you are one of the many who don't do well in an exam room. If so NEBOSH might not be the best development route for you.

I don't think you would have much chance of any role as a health and safety professional without a basic understanding of legal requirements but in practice the law is not that complex and, if anything, it has become simpler over the years.

These days almost all statutorty requirements are governed by the qualification that AK has mentioned - to do what is "reasonably practicable" - and to be honest, you don't even need to know the detail of the legal judgments as this terminology is very rarely tested in the Courts.

To put this into nerdish perspective there are two "authoritative" judgments on the meaning of "reasonable practicability" - the usually quoted Edwards v NCB and the less familiar Marshall v Gotham, which sets a somewhat less stringent standard - that judgment clarified Edwards v NCB, 5 years later, and in a higher court, so should be the gold standard, but is usually ignored, even by the Health and Safety Executive!!

Usually when something has gone wrong it is obvious whether something was or was not reasonably practicable (usually it's about working out what is done in comparable scenarios), so nobody ever ends up distinguishing between Edwards and NCB v Marshall v Gotham - I did that in detail ONCE in 40 years on a very specialist project.

So in general you wouldn't need to know which requirements are "absolute" or "strict liability" duties, from time to time you might need to understand that a requirement is qualified by "practicable" - without the "reasonably", but on the ground that "reasonably" tends to be reinserted [perhaps without realisation] purely for pragmatic reasons of what can practically be done to reduce risks.

In very simple terms doing what is reasonably practicable is about balancing the risks against the costs of mitigating them, to find a proportionate solution.

In making that balance you need to consider "time, money and effort" and any new risks that precautions might introduce.

An example I often use to illustrate this is minor work on my own home roof. I live at the top of a Victorian townhouse with basement and four storeys above, so it is a very long way to fall.

There is permanent access from a dormer window on to a narrow flat roof at the front of the building. That enables access onto a very steep slope, then a less steep slope to the ridge and similar on the rear, except for the flat roof (and no rear dormer).

So, imagine a job on the lower rear slope that is going to take 30 minutes to complete.

The immediately obvious solution is to build a scaffold at the rear to provide access direct from basement well and to provide protection from falling from the edge of that lower slope. 

But this means erecting (and dismantling) a scaffold about 18m (60 feet) high. Even with best scaffolding practice, this means putting scaffolders at significant risk + there is the heritage cost (very difficult to put ££ against) of the need to drill holes into a Listed Building to "tie" the scaffold to the building.

HSE guidance tells me that it is probably not reasonably practicable to erect a scaffold to prevent someone falling from the roof - even without considering the risk introduced by applying such precaution.

So, the pragmatic solution is to have highly experienced slaters using ropes to get up and over the ridge and to stop them falling from either front or rear of the building.

That's the legal explanation, now for an alternative to NEBOSH....

If you have a supportive employer you could do a (National or other) Vocational Qualification with the key milestones being at whatever is the equivalent of European Qualifications Framework (EQF) Levels 3 and 6, noting that NVQs and e.g. SVQs (in Scotland) do not align the same way against EQF.

Doing this is about putting together a portfolio to show your understanding of various principles of managing health and safety - including the legal bit! But, you could use your day to day work and the paperwork that results to build most of that portfolio.

So, you are faced with a problem - you assess the risks and you come up with various options to mitigate those risks - you discount some options as not being proportionate (i.e. you don't think they are reasonably practicable) and you select one or more precautions that are appropriate. 

Thus you show that you understand the legal principles by putting them into practice at the coal face, rather than in an exam.

Another option would be NCRQ - this is two Level 3 Certificates followed by an assignment to complete a Level 6 Diploma away from work.

You are presented with various assignments to test your understanding of the principles (including the legal bit!). You can't do this at work, but this does mean that you are not in danger of simply accepting custom and practice at your work as being acceptable, but that doesn't mean that what you have learned in your work has not given you transferable skills, knowledge and experience which would help you think through the issues in the assignments you are given.

With a Level 3 qualification under your belt, opportunities should open up. Get Level 6, more opportunties.

Good luck, Peter

SammyK  
#7 Posted : 15 December 2021 15:47:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SammyK

@BenjiVilla

I have terrible GCSE results. Joined the Navy to get life experience and started out as a H&S advisor in the Nuclear manufacturing worl- left there after being employed as a H&S Manager. What I am saying is, you don't need great GCSEs, I've found people look for experience over qualifications! 

good luck!! 

Originally Posted by: BenjiVilla Go to Quoted Post

Putting it in another context might help; what careers in H & S are possible for someone who hasn't got great GCSE's or further education? for someone who struggles understanding complex things like law? etc

What carrers are there other than being a Health & safety advisor? are there any roles where I wouldn't need to deal with or know the relevant laws? 

What careers in H & S are there for a guy who prefers holding a tool rather than writing a book on how to use it?

Kate  
#8 Posted : 15 December 2021 19:30:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Unless you are very nerdy, the law is tedious and difficult.  It's not you, it's the law!

I am quite nerdy but I still got sick of case law when I was studying and I still brace myself when I read new statute law (I *will* defeat its attempts to stop me penetrating its meaning).

Some jobs I've seen advertised over the years which don't require in-depth legal knowledge are:

- Risk assessor - in large manufacturing and engineering businesses with substantial H&S departments where the job purpose is quite simply to do risk assessments as they know they have a backlog to clear.  That sounds like it could be a good fit for you if you would be happy with a temporary contract.

- H&S coordinator or administrator - supporting the adviser or manager in keeping the documentation up to date and doing various routine tasks, such as testing the fire alarms or doing workplace inspections.  This could be a way in and is a great way to get experience.  If you strike gold with an employer they will also support your development in this kind of job.

Ovo  
#9 Posted : 17 December 2021 14:50:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ovo

Originally Posted by: BenjiVilla Go to Quoted Post

Morning all, after my initial post regarding 'becoming a fire risk assessor with no experience', possibly unsurprisingly, I decided to forget that idea and look into the world of general Health & Safety. I purchased a NEBOSH H & S General e-learning course which I'm currently working through and this process has again got me thinking about possible career paths in H & S, for a complete greenhorn like me. Currently I'm working through NG1 criminal law liabilities and although I understand any responsible H & S advisor should have great kowledge of all applicable laws - I struggle with understanding and remembering details like this and to be honest, it bores me to sleep, which leads me quite eloquently to this question; are there any roles I could aim for in the world of Health & Safety that are more hands-on or practical, without having to know everything about every law etc? 

Hello,

When I first took my Nebosh General, I was as green as you are now. on the first day of classroom training for NGC1 the tutor went through the legal stuf, Civil Vs Criminal, Magistrates Vs high courts etc and at the end of that first day I stayed behind and told him i thought i was on the wrong course ! He told me to stick with it as later in the course it would all make sense and he would explain a few examples of where it was put into practice. I have to say that he was right and I got a lot out of that course. turns out, i was one of only 6 people out of 15 delegates on the course that actually passed :-)

I then found a job as a trainee risk assessor where the legal side of it enabled me to produce risk assessments that were suitable and sufficient for clients, sometimes this can lead to savings and not extra expence for clients believe it or not.

Following on from that I then did an NCRQ level 6 diploma course, and again the legal stuff taught on the NGC course reared its ugly head but I was then able to demonstrate my understanding when presented with a number of scenarios outside of my normal feild of practice.

In summary, please dont give up, take it all in and you will be fine i promise. :-)

Kind regards, Phill.

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