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garyb2426  
#1 Posted : 17 April 2024 11:19:21(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
garyb2426

Hi all,

When there's 2 Principal Designers on the same Project, 1 under the Building Safety Act BSA, and the other under CDM.

If both PD's are from different companies, who should go down on the F10 as the PD?

Many thanks

Gary

Edited by user 17 April 2024 11:20:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

achrn  
#2 Posted : 17 April 2024 15:18:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: garyb2426 Go to Quoted Post

Hi all,

When there's 2 Principal Designers on the same Project, 1 under the Building Safety Act BSA, and the other under CDM.

If both PD's are from different companies, who should go down on the F10 as the PD?

Many thanks

Gary

CDM PD.

The F10 is the information required from Schedule 1 of the CDM Regs, and the CDM Regs don't relate to BSA (soince they came first, by several years, and have not been amended).

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
peter gotch on 17/04/2024(UTC)
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 18 April 2024 10:00:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I seem to remember reading about this and remember an agreement has to be reached between all parties about who shoild be the Lead PD.  Everyone else has duty to follow directions from that PD

Edited by user 18 April 2024 10:01:34(UTC)  | Reason: fat finger

allanwood  
#4 Posted : 18 April 2024 10:36:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
allanwood

In my humble opinion this should be the Principal Designer appointed by the client whi is to fulfil the role under CDM 2015.

having 2 "principal Designer" was always going to create confussion.

Please feel free to correct me if  i am wrong. 

achrn  
#5 Posted : 18 April 2024 10:46:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

I seem to remember reading about this and remember an agreement has to be reached between all parties about who shoild be the Lead PD.  Everyone else has duty to follow directions from that PD

I think you might be thinking about the situation where there are multiple clients and they can agree which is 'the' client.  I don't think there's anything in CDM about there being multiple CDM PDs and a lead PD.  CDM has only one PD (though it may be an organisation of multiple people) - that's kind of the point - there being one coordinating  PD with control over the design aspects of the project.   

There's nothing in CDM about the BSA PD.

All parties must cooperate with both PDs, I don't think there's anything in BSA that specifies either PD as being able to trump the other.  I haven't seen anything about one of teh PDs leading teh other.

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 18 April 2024 16:10:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Both sets of legislation have to be read with an eye to the Interpretation Act 1978.

This says amongst many other things that, UNLESS the contrary intention is obvious, that any reference to a word in the singular includes the plural.

Thus it is entirely legitimate to have two (or more) of ANY of the terms in e.g. CDM 2015.

....and often this happens.

As example, on a major infrastructure development project there will usually be tens, hundreds or thousands of bits of infrastructure that EACH meet the CDM definition of "structure" - often with multiple duty holders responsible for their future operation and maintenance.

So, widen X miles of road (a "structure") and you possibly cross a railway (a "structure") that needs some changes, and you probably end up diverting or otherwise changing lots of overhead, underground and other services such as power lines and pipes (each a "structure") 

A very large "project" might be split into packages, with a lead "designer" for each. 

Here the word "lead" is used on the basis of its CONTRACTUAL terminology and nowt to do with CDM per se.

If so, it might be entirely sensible to have a separate "principal designer" for each package, subject to effective management of any clashes at the interfaces.

On each package there will multiple advance works, sometimes on site at the same time (though preferably not in the exact same location at the same time). So, one "principal contractor" for the demolition of some buildings, another for the site investigation etc etc.

In turn that means more than one "construction phase plan".

At the completion of each "construction phase", a need for a "health and safety file" (or amendment of what was in place before).

Not very helpful to the owner and operator of the electricity network to be given a HUGE "health and safety file" that tells them about what is needed for future maintenance of Bridge No 423 (another "structure") if Bridge No 423 is nowhere near the overhead power line (a "structure").

Hence, the sensible solution is to package up the information such that each end user gets a tailored "health and safety file" that tells the end user what is relevant to them going forward.

What is happening progressively following the enactment of BSA doesn't really change much except to add another layer into consideration of who needs to communicate with other parties.

Kate  
#7 Posted : 18 April 2024 18:57:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Is it just me that thinks this is all totally ludicrous?

achrn  
#8 Posted : 19 April 2024 08:50:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

A very large "project" might be split into packages, with a lead "designer" for each. 

Here the word "lead" is used on the basis of its CONTRACTUAL terminology and nowt to do with CDM per se.

OK so far, though I note the caveat that BSA has co-opted teh term 'lead designer', so while it has no specific meaning under CDM, it does have meaning under BSA. 

The new building regs (i.e., Building regs as amended by https://www.legislation....23/911/introduction/made) have co-opted the title ‘Lead Designer’ to mean the designer who is acting as BSA / BR Principal Designer.  Part 6, 11D, (7), (b), (i) refers to agreeing “which designer is to fulfil the duties of the principal designer set out in these Regulations (“the lead designer”)”.  So ‘lead designer’ means ‘principal designer as set out in the building regs’ now, at least in some contexts.

Quote:

If so, it might be entirely sensible to have a separate "principal designer" for each package, subject to effective management of any clashes at the interfaces.

It may be sensible, but if all those structures are in one project, it wouldn't be in accordance with CDM.

I maintain that it is clear from context that there is one and only one CDM PD per project.  If 'the national grid' was one project there should only be one PD.  If the road and all those bridges were one project, there should be only one PD covering it all.  If it's a larger scheme split into multiple contracted projects there will be one per project, but there isn't a separate PD for different packages within a single project.

peter gotch  
#9 Posted : 19 April 2024 15:15:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

achrn

You raise two separate issues.

As for the term "lead designer" in the Regs made under BSA this appears to be a case of trying to nail down every potential variant in procurement. I quote:

(6) Where there is only one contractor working on a project that contractor is to be treated as appointed as the principal contractor and must fulfil the duties of the principal contractor set out in these Regulations.

(7) Where paragraph (6) applies and—

(a)there is only one designer, or it is reasonably foreseeable that there will be only one designer working on a project, that designer must fulfil the duties of the principal designer set out in these Regulations; or

(b)there is more than one designer or it is reasonably foreseeable that there will be more than one designer working on a project at any time—

(i)the designers must agree in writing which designer is to fulfil the duties of the principal designer set out in these Regulations (“the lead designer”);

(ii)the lead designer must give a copy of the agreement to the client.

So this deals with the rare scenario where there is only one "contractor" on a project and to be honest I have not checked how a "contractor" is defined in these new Regulations but is defined in similar terms to the interpretation in CDM a scenario which will vary occur, as so few Contractors do everything inhouse without ANY subbies including ANY self-employed workers.

,,,,and says that even if there is a single Contractor there MUST be a PD even if such role is NOT required under CDM.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

However as for your assertion that CDM is clear that more than one PD is prohibited, I don't read CDM that way and have worked on big projects split into packages with separate PDs for each.

It is up to the Client to decide how broadly to define the "project" and whether to redefine the "project" as it progresses.

As example on the A9 Perth to Inverness Dualling Programme, initially budgeted to be completed in 10 years at a cost of £3.5bn, a single Designer was appointed to progress the Programme. They were appointed as CDM Co-ordinator, broadly the equivalent of the PD under CDM 2007.

The prelminary design then identifed 12 mini projects, P1 to P1 though P5 and P6 were subsequently amalgamated. 

Those 12 mini projects were then split into one, Luncarty to Birnam, awarded to the original designer for the seheme but by this time one of the Northern mini projects had already been awarded to a different designer and that was included in one of the three Lots which were then divided up amongst three designers. 

So, now we had three Lots + Luncarty to Birnam.

Later, little packages were added to each Lot for improvements on part of the network ALREADY dualled.

How many times would you like the Client to redefine its idea of the "project" or "project"s?

I suggest that if you recognise the implications of the Interpretation Act then CDM offers the flexibility for the "client" or "client"s to apply a pragmatic approach that does not preclude whatever procurement approach is taken.

Hence, as example, Scottish Water and Scottish and Southern Energy Networks might take the opportunity of a major road infrastructure programme to do some upgrades of their utility coverage that extends beyond simply doing what is necessary for the road widening. If that means them acting as the "client" for all the DISCRETE works on their utilities, so be it.

In contrast, it would be unlikely that some farmer would wish to take on the responsibility for doing what would be needed for their PRIVATE water supply.

The art is to work out where the interfaces are and to manage any potential clashes. 

Surely you are not one of those Safety Czars who wants to make life more difficult by sticking to rules set in stone?

I also realise that the HSE's preferred online notification system wasn't set up for these sophisticated procurement arrangements but that's a problem of HSE's entirely unnecessary making and it is up to the HSE to sort our its system.

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