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firesafety101  
#1 Posted : 22 March 2025 23:34:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I find it so hard to believe one of the world's major airports does not have a UPS.  I wonder if their computer systems are protected from power failures and surges.

In the early 50s General Motors in Detroit USA lost a complete factory to a fire that not only stopped vehicle production but also affected their parts supplies to major customers.  The fire was seen to be the world's largest fire at the time.  After that their Fire Protection was the best anywhere in the world at the time.

I worked for Delco Electronics in Kirkby, one of the general Motors plants in the UK, and I was amazed to find four Electric sub Stations inside the factory walls. They were designed to "kick in" immediately if the electrical power failed.  Each one was protected by a CO2 system and a wet pipe sprinkler system as back up.

That factory was built more than 65 years ago and despite a few fires breaking out they were all well confined by the volunteer fire brigade, I was Chief Fire Officer.

I know the Heathrow Airport power outage and fire was well away from the airport and their own Fire Brigade would not be involved but they relied on a single sub station for power.

I was really amazed to see Heathrow so badly affected by a fire in their only power supply sub station.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 23 March 2025 11:02:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

They did have back up to power an emergency shut down of the airport - it didn't just go black.

UPS is a temporary supply to protect safety functions to permit a controlled shut down. The only "Uninteruptable" is these through flow devices provide output power when the feed supply stops.

During the current digital voice debacle BT sent a UPS for powering my domestic broadband. This breeze block sized device would power the router for up to four hours with the run time decrasing as more devices were plugged in - just imagine the size of a battery back up plant to keep Heathrow fully functional whilst power is re-routed.

The government has announced a resilience review which is also doomed. I worked for a chemical plant where part of our resilience was to have two sub-station feeds one from either side of the plant. One day our ususal feed was off-line for sub-station maintenance, no problem said the Process Engineers until a gang of utilities sub-contractors made a line strike during an unannounced excavation.

That day our Hazard Operability team became fervent believers in Murphy's law.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 23/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 23/03/2025(UTC), Kate on 23/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 23/03/2025(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 23 March 2025 11:02:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

They did have back up to power an emergency shut down of the airport - it didn't just go black.

UPS is a temporary supply to protect safety functions to permit a controlled shut down. The only "Uninteruptable" is these through flow devices provide output power when the feed supply stops.

During the current digital voice debacle BT sent a UPS for powering my domestic broadband. This breeze block sized device would power the router for up to four hours with the run time decrasing as more devices were plugged in - just imagine the size of a battery back up plant to keep Heathrow fully functional whilst power is re-routed.

The government has announced a resilience review which is also doomed. I worked for a chemical plant where part of our resilience was to have two sub-station feeds one from either side of the plant. One day our ususal feed was off-line for sub-station maintenance, no problem said the Process Engineers until a gang of utilities sub-contractors made a line strike during an unannounced excavation.

That day our Hazard Operability team became fervent believers in Murphy's law.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 23/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 23/03/2025(UTC), Kate on 23/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 23/03/2025(UTC)
peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 23 March 2025 15:13:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

firesafety

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think we should be careful not to jump to conclusions, but it seems fairly clear that Heathrow was not reliant on one single substation as the back up supply started to kick in within a few hours.

Need to give an investigation time to consider how adequate the resilience was for a very improbable event.

Whether the investigation is sufficiently thorough, comes up with appropriate recommendations and whehter these are put into effect in a timely manner, we can't prejudge.

However, we DON'T have e.g. a parallel West Coast Mainline to be available should the WCML be out.

So people make judgements based on probability and consequence and there is a limit to how many huge, ugly substations one wants in a built up environment or even in the counrryside where such a facility would take up green space.

When the water supply to my locality went off last year, due to a burst 36 inch pipe about 8 miles away, I was pleasantly surprised by how quickly the contingency plan was put into effect and mains supply restored. 

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
firesafety101 on 24/03/2025(UTC)
Messey  
#5 Posted : 23 March 2025 20:31:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

Business Continuity is a bit like home insurance. Nobody likes to pay for it and when money is tight, often it's the first thing to go and be replaced by a crossed fingers policy hoping that nothing goes wrong. But before the Govt gets too demanding re the Heathrow cock up, they need to take a long hard look at the resilence of their own critical infrastructure.

They need to look at sites where halon was decommisioned and never replaced with an alternative suppression system as a senior career Civil Servant with no fire safety competence announced "we will live with the risk" before promptly retiring (true story) They need to look at how many Govt data centres do not conform to BS 6266:2011 (Fire protection for electronic equipment installations. Code of practice) as many do not (true story) And they need to look at their own practice of lining up emergency generators next to each other - often only separated by fuel tanks - to save money. (yep, another true story). Not great as a fire in one generator will take out all of them  Now lets look a SSE (Scottish and Southern Electricity) and Heathrow - these are the two companies involved with this outage fiasco. I dare say they will be under similar financial pressures as the Govt Estae, but they also need to satisfy their shareholders with a bit fat premium  I wonder - like the water industries - critical UK infrastructure such as SSE and Heathrow should ever have been privatised and now obliged to turn a profit which may have effected management decision making on expensive projects  Why for instance, didnt the cooling oil temperature warning devices on the transformers flag up a problem so intervention could be made before the explosion? (assuming that overheated oil was a part cause of the failure) The truth will come out, but when?

thanks 3 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 23/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 24/03/2025(UTC), firesafety101 on 24/03/2025(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 23 March 2025 20:51:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sounds so similar to a number of AK's posts over Covid - "we knew it could happen but chose to hope"

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 24/03/2025(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 23 March 2025 20:51:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sounds so similar to a number of AK's posts over Covid - "we knew it could happen but chose to hope"

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/03/2025(UTC), peter gotch on 24/03/2025(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 24 March 2025 11:17:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Well the latest story from various media outlets seems to be:

  • A substation that supplies power to Heathrow caught fire and was out of action
  • The other two substations that supply power to Heathrow continued to run normally and according to the electricity company( National Grid?) that should have been enough to keep the airport going.
  • The airport has is own limited generating capacity based on a biomass plant( is it any use or just something to make them look “green”)
  • There are backup generators and UPS system they are only able to support critical services such as landing lights etc. That is they have enough power to enable the airport to safely receive airplanes but not enough to operate the coffee machines.
  • The issue according to Heathrow management is now described as one of them having to power down and reset various systems at the airport. Not clear why that took 18 hours.

There has been a significant amount of finger pointing with airlines seemingly not convinced by  Heathrow’s explanation for the shutdown and the power company (not sure which one) insisting that there was enough juice going into the airport  to keep it mostly running. Perhaps they could have kept the airport going but would have  been forced to shut down all of the shops, bars etc. that would have impacted the airports cash flow and it might have been cheaper(not necessarily safer) to simply shut the airport. We will see what comes out over the next few days. Whether we get a true picture, I think will be unlikely. The finger pointing will stop and they will go back to making money. At least nobody was hurt.

firesafety101  
#9 Posted : 24 March 2025 13:11:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Quoting Nigel Farage this morning.

He said on X: “Heathrow Airport had no diesel generator backup. It was removed as part of their drive to net zero. Dubai Airport and many military bases do have diesel generators and their aircraft would have continued flying. The truth about this disaster is being withheld.”

A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 24 March 2025 16:29:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Ok under the Civil Contingencies Act Heathrow airport would be classed as a Category 2 responder as it is “An airport operator, within the meaning of section 82(1) of the Airports Act 1986 (c. 31), in Great Britain.” As such it would have a legal duty to plan for an emergency which definitions includes “ disruption of facilities for transport,”( Section 1,(2),(g) of the Act). I would suggest that if the airport has done what Nigel Farage has claimed then it would be in very deep doo doo for not fulfilling its duties under the Act.

Let’s see what happens?

peter gotch  
#11 Posted : 24 March 2025 17:17:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

firesafety - can I suggest that Nigel Farage might not know what he is talking about and just wanted a soundbite in preference to allowing an investigation to progress and then comment on the findings, good or bad.

In response to Nigel's tweet or whatever it is called these days on X, somone has commented:

What a lying [REDACTED!!!]. No diesel generator can run all the systems and keep the lights on for an airport the size of Heathrow.

Anotber person comments:

Not sure what Nigel wants here. In 2024, Heathrow handled 83.9 million passengers, and as a result the airport consumes as much electricity per day as a small city.

They have backup power sources purely to land any aircraft that are already too close to divert and to evacuate the premises if needed. Building a diesel generator ‘farm’ big enough to run the whole airport would probably lead to the demolition of Slough, and operating it would probably need a direct pipeline from Kuwait.

A little exaggeration in that, perhaps, though it does highlight the subject of quite how much land might be needed for diesel generators as a back up power supply. May be time to bulldoze my first primary school not far from Slough?

Dubai Airport also says that it has LOTS of solar panels and is putting in more as part of its drive for Sustainbaility. Plenty of articles about that which are MUCH more likely to have credibility than something that NF has to say about all things Net Zero. 

As for military airports they don't tend to have many fare paying passengers. So an entirely false comparator.  

A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 25 March 2025 09:21:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

not a fan of nigel and his ilk then?

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 25/03/2025(UTC)
peter gotch  
#13 Posted : 25 March 2025 11:07:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning AK

Now, if these Forums included emojis within the menu I would probably have put a smiley face here, even though I very rarely use emojis!

I could, of course, have gone and got such an emoji from elsewhere, but whether it would properly cut and paste into a Forum posting, who knows? (though given the formatting issues I have had with these Forums I suspect that the answer would be not) 

I try to avoid party politics on these Forums, so what I think of Farage is largely irrelevant.

I do have a fairly close relative who is one of Nige's constituents. I imagine that they may not be entirely impressed with the service they are getting out of their local MP.

A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 25 March 2025 14:56:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I have just read that a business can sue for defamation! That could be interesting…

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