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#1 Posted : 10 September 2001 10:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Matthews Hello All. My name is Bob and I am 52. I was made redundant from Siemens in June. I am still looking for a H&S job but it seems that no one wants old ones anymore. I have NEBOSH certificate and also AIIRSM. I am also a fully qualified forklift truck instructor and examiner. I am looking for work either in the Northwest or Midlands and Shropshire. I have applied for a few jobs but it seems that age is against me although they won't say that of course. I am prepared to relocate to most parts of the UK if there is anyone out there looking for a hard working dedicated and loyal person So come on you companies out there give us old uns a break!!!!!! My e-mail address is rmatt1@beeb.net All the best Bob
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#2 Posted : 19 September 2001 15:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Laurie Bob Keep trying. I was compulsorily retired at age 55, and it took me three years and several hundred applications before I got into a safety post. It's worth waiting for. Laurie
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#3 Posted : 20 September 2001 13:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Caroline James Hi Bob, the best advice I can offer you is not to disclose your age on the application form. This is a discussion I was having only yesterday and consensus was - where it asks for DOB leave blank, when it comes to qualifications only include more recent ones which are relevant, do not include school or college details anywhere on the application form, at your age anything that happened so long ago is hardly relevant but by including them on the form you instantly give away your age, do not include any employment details for the start of your career which are not relevant, do not include specific dates for employment details over ten years old if they need to be included because they are relevant, do not include any details of lapses of employment, if there are any periods where you were unemployed be creative, do not put 'unemployed' put 'time spent bringing up/with family', or 'time out refurbishing/renovating property', or 'time out travelling', after all when unemployed you will have spent more time with your family and no doubt have been pressed into redecorating etc. and you will have spent hours travelling to job interviews, so you aren't lying. In short, for things which will help your application be as explicit as possible, for things which might hinder your application be as vague as you can get away with. All this shouldn't prevent you from getting an interview anymore than putting your age on the form. Make your application too good to be ignored despite the vagueness and missing information. Once you have the opportunity to meet face to face at an interview you can come clean if you feel you have to, but at least by then you will have had the opportunity to be seen and heard on your own merits and not dismissed simply due to your date of birth! Good luck, Caroline.
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#4 Posted : 21 September 2001 16:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Diane Warne A couple of points: Please do not categorise yourself as an "oldun" at 52! I have been involved in recruiting staff quite a few times. I have never, ever rejected an application just on the basis of someone's age, neither did any of my colleagues with whom I was selecting candidates. I fully accept that some employers will discriminate on this basis, but don't automatically assume that it's your age that is barring you from interviews. Take a hard look at your applications from an employer's point of view - if you have 100 applications for a job you will shortlist only those that are really impressive on paper. Is there someone who can look over your CV and give some constructive criticism? The message from your application must be: I am someone you MUST interview. I accept Caroline's views, but personally, if someone left information off their application I would suspect they were hiding something, and would only shortlist them if they sounded really OUTSTANDING. Finally, these days many people only strike lucky after a lot of applications, as Laurie indicated - competition for good jobs can be fierce. After I was made redundant (at the age of 39) I made about 40 applications before I landed a job. Some of my former colleagues got the first job they applied for, others were out of work for ages - how long it takes depends on so many things. Very best of luck - and remember, YOU ARE NOT OLD, for goodness' sake!
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#5 Posted : 21 September 2001 19:08:00(UTC)
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Posted By Nick Higginson Some interesting thoughts. How do you get around being considered too young? I know the answer is that employers shouldn't discriminate against age, but in the real world it happens. It is sometimes difficult to convince people that twenty somethings can have the necessary skills and experience to be a safety proffessional, especially if you're not a university graduate. Just some food for thought so you old uns don't feel so hard done to - everyone has problems getting a new job, I guess a lot of it's down to your CV. They do say never judge a book by its cover, but first impressions count a lot. Regards, Nick (25 but feeling 52)
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#6 Posted : 27 September 2001 15:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Allen Bob, Tried to send you this note by E mail but it didn't seem to get through. I'm sorry I can't offer you a job but I can let you know my personal experience in the last year from the point when I decided to leave my previous employer. Rather than fire off the usual scatter gun of CVs to everyone in my address book after discussion with my wife I decided to set up my own H&S consultancy. This is the one area where an old head is a definite advantage. Many employers want someone who can come straight in and start working right away without spending several months training and familiarising. Your experience and accumulated knowledge is what they are paying for. It sounds as if you have got quite a bit of experience in several fields and there are always companies looking for that sort of thing. The chances are they may need it for a week or anything up to three months, but not permanantly. Because the job isn't long term you can charge a higher day rate and always have the prospect of doing something different tomorrow. Setting up your own company isn't difficult. It costs about £100. Your local enterprise trust will give you no end of help including training and in my case I qualified for a grant of £1,000. The most important thing is to get a good accountant who will keep you right on tax, dividends, PAYE etc. Once its up and running the admin is a couple of hours a month. This is what I did a year ago. I have worked every day (now on day 252) I have wanted to work since September last year and have had to turn some work down. I'm 50 in a month and my aim is to keep this going for the next ten years. The main thing is to focus on the fact that the experience you have is the most important thing and sell that. Of course you don't have to stop sending the CVs out for conventional employment. You may get an interview and it will always impress a potential employer that you have not sat idly at home waiting for something to turn up. Alternatively you may find that prefer the flexibility and independence of being your own boss. Like it or not (and I'm not a huge fan of it myself!) employment patterns are changing but you can also take advantage of the situation. Think about it. Good Luck! Regards John
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#7 Posted : 28 September 2001 07:08:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Urquhart Bob, You have already had some good advice, but here are a few more bits and pieces. Firstly, as others have said don't think yourself Too OLD, (or in Nicks case Too Young). I must in comedy script terms, be really, really old! I can exceed you by several years and I am still working, busier than ever, and after a couple of years self employment in Consultancty in the UK after redundancy and corporate re-structure as they call it, out of the blue has come a minimum 2 year contract in Hong Kong, so The World (Subject to dis-investment and business constraint following the recent terror horrors) could be your oyster as it is said. Look at working for yourself. Prepare a list of your strengths and the key skills that you can offer a Client. Identify the Market Rates and set yourself a Fee structure. Stick to this and don't be forced into discounting, You pay peanuts you get monkeys type syndrome. There are some who will get commissions as safety advisers or trainers who are absolutely hopless but they are cheap. Use IOSH resources to help you. As an IOSH Member market your strengths as a professional backed by The leading Safety Institution for Professional Health & Safety Advisors.(I don't mean actually backed but that you have a recognised and credible qualification and you keep up to date, if you are not CPD registered then get going) Use the IOSH Consultants Standard Form of Contract which sets out the terms and payment conditions to your client and under which you will work. It is essential to maintain your cashflow that you adhere to the agreement payment terms as some clients, especially in Construction will strecth and stretch the payment period such that you can wait 100 days or more for your fee. Also very important, get Profesional Indemnity Insurance Cover, again IOSH can help you here. A good accountant also and keep daily records of all your costs, expenses and income, dont put it off, do it daily. If you have your own car then separate your running cost, businees v personal. A good way to do this is to have 2 Credit cards, one for the business and one for personal. Make sure that you Insure for Business use as well as Socila, Domestic and Pleasure. Also talk to your bank, they have Small Business advisers and they can help. Some of the Business Advisers in the banks network with the local Enterprise Groups and the Chambers of Commerce and Busines Federations so get them to introduce you. I used to go to a Business Forum in Leamington, it was a Breakfast meeting and you networked, heard about a members business and were given leads or possible contacts of businesses that might need your skills. In return you brought along some names of your contacts who you knew to be interestd in a good local printer, or small Computer supplier, or an Acountant or Legal practice etc. You were also required to stand up and in about 2 minutes present yourself, your operation and what you had to offer, so good presentation and public speaking skills are useful and pre - prepared preferably memorised script, with a bit of humour if you can. And then have the Businees Cards and a one sided A4 flyer to distribute, don't let the potential clients go cold. It worked well, started at 7am and finished at 8.45am without fail and you got breakfast all for a fiver a visit and it got you known and got business. (Self help really).Oh and before you leave on your first visit, get an attendance list so you know who the businesses were or exchange Business cards. I'd get about 1500 to start with if you are seriously going to go it alone, you will be amazed how quickly they go, and whilst computer generated ones are reasonable get them professionally printed on good stiff quality card and make sure their size is compatible with normally purchasable Business card holders. Also use the IOSH Branch and District meetings to network. If you have as you say special Training skills for Fork Trucks offer your local Branch a presentaion. Branches are always looking for content and people for their programmes. Also check out your area Geographically to identify the businesses that might most need your key skills then cold call them. Don't just post a flyer or phone, turn up in their rception, convince them that they can't afford to let you leave their premises without giving you a commission. When you are in a companies reception look around you, observe things that might be hanging on the wall, Like safety Organisation membership or safety Awards. Use this a an ice breaker, comment upon it and show that ou idntify with the issue or the aards or whatever and then suggext that you could build upon tat achievement if they hired you etc etc, get the drift. Also, whilst I know it is rude to overhear, (I was always brought up that way) but it is truly amazing what information you can gather in a few minutes about an oganisation and it's prsonnel whilst standing or sitting in their reception. If they have a notice board displayed read it. Is their a Safety Policy? a Fire procedure? Firt aider details, all useful intelligence for you to open up your marketing and services presntation with. Also talk to the ecpionist if there i one pesent, ask open enquiring questions, don't giv too much away about you, listen to what the answers are that they are giving you. Have some simple and concise Business material pre-printed and ready as handouts, a business card and any other simple information that you think might convince a busines WHY they should use YOU! Be short and sharp and thank them very much. If you leave empty handed set the ground, confirm and get their agreement that you will approach them again in 2 or 3 weeks time, and be sure to. Don't let them fob you off with not today thankyou. However if that is the case always be positive and thank them for their time. Make sure that they also have your card. Watch the local media, incidents, mishaps in Industry and Commerce, follow them up, make contact as soon after the event if you have skills related to its betterment and go get the business, you might be the first to turn up on their doorstep. Also watch for new businesses opening up, companies doing large scale recruitment, (Although in this day and age that too is a bit slow just now, but keep at it). Once you get a few base clients build them up and listen and watch whilst you are with them. In these times (of Terror etc, as they say in War, Careless talk costs,) you will be amazed at what you can learn about companies and business partners just from working with and having association with the organisations that they (Your Client) does business with. Follow up these opportunities. If you can, get your current client to introduce you or reccommend you. If thy don't, won't or can't, then cold call them yourself. If a client you work for is involved in Rotary or the Lions or other similar organisation express interest that you would be pleased to go along to open meetings or business lunches. There, do your networking and sus out your possible business leads. Have you thought about approaching the Fork truck manufacturers and distributors. They may have need of Freelance Safety Trainers from time to time, or you could try convincing them that they should have or offer such a service to their machine renting or purchasing clients and that you are their man. If you intend to work from home, set aside a room and keep it as the Office. Set yourself absolute Hours as well and b in the ofice or out on the road for them, no, Oh I will have social activities today. And keep the home office as you would if you were at work in an employers premise, no domestic interruptions between specified hours. It may seem hard but it will pay dividends. Also if you can afford it get a second Phone Line for the Busines fax and phon, and a Mobile, and keep your domestic number for the family. Also don't be temptd to take on too much work. If you have a steady workload and are offered more, be positive and open if you turn new work down on the basis that you want to give reliable, responsible and profssional srvice and that if you took on that particular job at this ime you would not be able to guaruntee that level and you feel sure that the client will undrstand, but invite tham to come back to you if and when your busy spell dies down. Also if having turned work down you then find that you have capacity again, contact whoever it was that offered you the business that you turned down, enquire has their need ben satsfied. You never know, they may have put it on hold when you said that you couldn't help. Whatever you do don't sit around waiting for it to come to you because it won't, get out there and sell yourself, and good luck. Sorry to have rambled and been a bit patronising but like some other respondents I too have been through the experience and it opens your eyes. There is opportunity to be had, all you have to do is work at it. Regards. Ken Urquhart.
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#8 Posted : 29 September 2001 18:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Cliff Rollinson Bob, Fortunately for me, I have not found myself in your position yet, althogh it will most likely occur at some point. When I first read your message, the idea of a consultancy also came to mind. About a year ago I wrote to a local firm of consultants in North Wales, as I was thinking about a job change. There was no job advertised, it was just a whim, if you like. My offer to them was to slot into any work which they felt would suit my experience, and perhaps work alongside one of their full time people. I also offered to work for expenses only for a couple of weeks, so as we could both judge our compatibility. I was offered the chance, with full rates of pay, but took a different job in the end, maybe it would be worth contacting someone like this in your locality. someone who is not advertising for a vacant post. Therefore no competition from high flying graduates with several `osh` qualifications ! Best of success to you. Cliff
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