Posted By Jim Walker I wonder if others feel it might be useful for IOSH to have a "guidance to health & safety qualifications" page on this web-site and the SHP magazine. The career forum is littered with misunderstandings "managing safety" is NEBOSH cert. etc. The Safety and Health Practitioner magazine often advertises jobs saying "NEBOSH cert. minimum, Corporate membership of IOSH essential" or some such. I've just been to an interview where I found myself explaining to the interviewing personnel manager that my NVQ4/MIOSH was not the same as another candidate’s NEBOSH Cert./Affiliate, not that I think he believed me. Maybe a Comparison would help, something along the lines of: "Managing Safely" equals a decent GCSE NEBOSH Cert. equals an "A" level NEBOSH Diploma or NVQ4 equals a 2.2 degree

Posted By Geoff Burt The ones I like say MIOSH preferably RSP and then offer a salary up to £16-£18K. Who takes these jobs?

Posted By Ron Young Jim, Where did you find the information that says a NEBOSH Diploma was equivalent to a 2.2 degree or were you just postulating? Not wanting to stir the old pot about qualification snobbery but when does a 2 year part time course (difficult as it is) equal a 4 year full time Higher Education Degree? It was my belief that to have an equivalent of a degree, you had to achieve an N/SVQ level 5 and as the Diploma underpins the knowledge for level 4, I'm more inclined to think that it therefore roughly equates to an HND. Any comments?

Posted By Jim Walker Hazel, I assume your answer to Neil Hancock was also intended for the thread I started. I doubt there is any real problem understanding this issue with those of us that have been around H&S for a few years. My point being there is a need to get over the message to non-H&S professionals and provide them with good easy to understand advice. My guess is that a significant proportion of IOSH membership are members, in part, to improve their job prospects. On the question of adequate qualifications, Management of H&S at Work (reg. 7) ducks the answer, as does HSG65. The guide in SHP is a start, but I seem to remember complaints when it was first published as it was a bit hard on Associates (majority of the membership last time I looked). You offer to provide clarification to anyone who contacts you, so why can’t a written statement be placed on the web. The members could then refer prospective or current employers to this.

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Paul, Under Regulation 7 of the Management of H&S at Work Regulations 1999, qualifications do matter. Remember it is the employer’s duty to “appoint one or more competent persons to assist him in undertaking the measures he needs to take to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed upon him under the relevant statutory provisions” etc. etc. Under Regulation 7 competence is defined as “sufficient training, experience, knowledge and other qualities”. In other words it is the vital, underpinning knowledge that enables an OH&S practitioner to apply their experience, however if the employer were to be prosecuted, the burden of proof would be on that employer to identify that they had employed a competent person. Without a suitable qualification whether it has been obtained through examination or a competence base process of assessment, how would the employer discharge that burden of proof? Jim, Just to bring you up to date, Corporate members numbers now greatly outnumber the Associate members.

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Paul, When I responded to your original comments, the definition for competence that I quoted, came directly from the HSC Approved Code of Practice publication L21for the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999. To be absolutely clear, I quoted directly from Regulation 7(5) which can be found on page 17 of this publication. I also carefully drafted my response to include the phrase "through examination or a competence base process of assessment". In other words I also included the NVQ route which I also have respect for. Competence is very subjective and there has been much debated, however I believe in OH&S a good standard of competence is based upon thorough knowledge of the subject (underpinning knowledge), experience of applying that knowledge and continual professional development. Within the UK we do have a national specification for the knowledge element of OH&S competence, this is the specific ENTO standard. Paragraph 46 of the above ACOP makes it very clear that "employers are solely responsible for ensuring that those they appoint to assist them with health and safety are competent to carry out the tasks they are assigned and are given adequate information and support". As I previously quoted Under Regulation 7 competence is defined as "sufficient training, experience, knowledge and other qualities". Therefore if an employer is to avoid prosecution under regulation 7, it would be advisable to employ someone who has a nationally recognised qualification (including NVQs) for the task they are being asked to undertake, provide the necessary training for that person or to have a thorough internal process of measuring the OH&S competence of that person. I have not heard of any employers who have developed an internal process for measuring OH&S competence in line with the ENTO specification. In the (Guidance) paragraphs 51 & 52 of the ACOP it identifies in all but simple situations, "Employers are advised to check the appropriate health & safety qualifications". I also feel that you are being very unfair to describe the examination process as simply a " paper qualification", in my experience none of my colleagues had the "incredible knack for absorbing information at lectures" and regurgitating it in the right fashion during an exam" as you described. When I sat my IOSH Corporate Membership Exams, there was a minimum of 20 hours of written examination, which required full and extensive answers in order to pass them. In total I took 41 hours of examination time (which is not unusual) to complete this process. 600 hours minimum of study where recommended, I have calculated that I spent well over 1100 hours. I believe that your statement in your original message, is a misleading one particularly relating to OH&S competence. Remember there has been one supermarket chain who was successfully prosecuted by a local authority, simply because they had not employed a competent person with the appropriate health and safety qualifications. We all have limitations on our professional competence and as an example, I believe that I would not be competent to act as an ionising radiation protection advisor.

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Paul, Normally if I am asked for a professional opinion, which happens on a daily basis, I have the luxury of gathering as much information surrounding the question, the opportunity (if necessary) of researching the matter further before giving an informed answer. Safety is a wide subject and there may well be more than one simple answer, as you can see from my answers to you comments. Unfortunately I do not believe that interviews are the best place to solely test candidates competence, especially if they are not experienced in the culture or the environment of that organisation and particularly when they are under pressure. I am sure that in the same circumstances, I would not have performed in the manner that you were seeking. Please let me assure you that I have plenty of practical OH&S experience. If the tables were turned and I was part of an unsuccessful interview panel, when undertaking the interview management review process, I would also want to identify if the designed interview process had possibly failed the candidates.

Posted By Jim Walker Going back to my original question, which has not been answered and has gone off at a tangent. Do you think that the IOSH web site could provide a useful service to those trying to wade through to confusion of how to identify suitably competent persons for an H&S post. My point being unless you are already knowledgeable regarding H&S matters it is difficult to understand equivalencies of H&S qualifications and decide which level would be appropriate for a particular organisation. Since my original posting I have found an "equivalence chart" on the Qualifications Curriculum Authority website www.qca.org.uk/nq/framework. I would have thought to modify this specifically for our profession would be fairly easy and would at least resolve one misunderstanding. There could also be some advice regarding the risk level of an organisation and qualifications and experience criteria of the organisation’s H&S Advisor needs to attain. Other than the "Sainsbury Case" I've seen nothing that actually states what is a suitable qualification level. All HSE literature says you should assess the level of competence required but offers no further advice on how to do so. Is IOSH concerned that if it makes a specific statement or offers advice it might find itself involved in a future "Sainsbury Case".

Posted By Ron Young Graham, As ex RN, I can say that you are on the right track. The DipSM is a good qualification and although some of the blinkered contributers to this forum might disagree, I think the training is par with the NEBOSH Diploma. Most employers requiring a diploma qualification do not make distinctions between them. If you trawl the historical threads on this site, you will see several that discuss this very subject. You will also see several that speak of competence and the fact that a qualification alone does not maketh the competent safety professional. It speaks of training, experience & knowledge and other skills and I would suggest that if you have these as well as your diploma, you will do OK. As far as your MSc is concerned, if you lack experience & other training, you might want to think about getting these before applying yourself to the Masters. Peter Harvey has posted several threads in the careers forum to try and set up an ex forces forum, you may want to check this out for more specific advice. The biggest problem that I encountered when I left the military was trying to convince people at interview of the level of responsibility I had as a SNCO and how it would transfer to civvy life. Good luck

Posted By Nick Higginson Ron, Some strong views there. "blinkered" forum users? DipSM on a par with NEBOSH Diploma? I haven't done DipSM, so can't comment. Anyone done both who could? Are DipSM holders eligible for MIOSH? I am aware of DipSM holders who have then felt the need to do NEBOSH DIploma Part One, let alone feel it was equivalent to Part 2 as well. I appreciate you are trying to ease the previous respindants fears, but lets at least give him the true facts upon which he can base decisions. Regards, Nick PS I think the general point made by the thread is that neither experience or qualifications alone would infer competence. It does not just relate to qualifications, as I would venture to suggest that it may be difficult to prove in a court of law that a practitioner with 15 years experience, but no formal qualifications, was competent.

Posted By Nick Higginson Ron, Fair enough. Suffice to say that any recognised safety qualification, be it NEBOSH, DipSM, NVQ or degree, plus relevant experience goes a long way to making a competent safety practitioner. Regards, Nick

Posted By peter gotch Murray At risk of reopening wounds on this site! British Safety Council's offshoot the International Institute of Risk and Safety Management, IIRSM considers your BSC Diploma to be the academic qualification for MIIRSM status. IIRSM accords the same status to a Level 3 NVQ in Occupational Safety and Health Management. IOSH considers a Level 3 (or NEBOSH Diploma Part 1) to be the academic qualification for TechSP status (subject to comment that also require experience). For MIOSH status IOSH require NEBOSH Diploma Part 2, NVQ Level 4 or various approaval higher level qualifications ie BSc, MSc etc. (in each case + experience) The implication is that IIRSM themselves consider BSC Diploma to be less difficult than NEBOSH Diploma Part 2 This is perhaps reflected in relative pass rates. BSC very high, NEBOSH Diploma Part 2 very low - see threads on Study Support Forum! My own advice would be find the chance to broaden your H&S experience and consider the NVQ route to obtain higher H&S qualification. Good luck. Peter

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Just to keep the record straight on membership. There is a comprehensive list of IOSH accredited courses can be found on http://www.iosh.co.uk/membership/accredited.cfm and details of membership grades can be found on http://www.iosh.co.uk/membership/grades.cfm Both the NEBOSH Certificate and DipSM are not on this comprehensive list of accredited courses, however the NEBOSH Diploma Part 1 & 2 are.