Posted By STEVE
HI
CAN ANYONE CLARIFY A REMARK THAT I PICKED UP ON AT WORK THE OTHER DAY.
3 WORKERS,ALL TRAINED IN LEAD BURNING ARE ON THE SAME JOB.IT ONLY REQUIRES 1 MAN TO BURN SMALL SECTIONS OF LEAD AND THE OTHER 2 TO REMOVE IT.
THE MAN WHO WAS DOING THE LEAD BURNING WAS TAKEN OF THE JOB FOR A COUPLE OF HRS,TO KEEP THE JOB MOVING ONE OF THE OTHER TRAINED WORKERS TOOK OVER THE BURNING USING THE SAME HOT WORK PERMIT.
CAN THIS BE DONE?

THE PERMIT IS A SMALL QUESTIONAIRRE ASKING IF EXT.IS IN PLACE,WHAT SORT,WHAT BURNING METHOD IS USED,IS THERE A FIREWATCH STOOD BYE,HAS A GAS TEST BEEN DONE ETC.ETC.
THE WORKER HAS TO SIGN THIS STATING IT HAS BEEN READ AND FILLED IN.

WHILST HE HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS ALL WORKERS HAVE TO READ THE PERMIT ASWELL AS THE GENERAL PERMIT.
IN THE PAST WE HAVE HAD UP TO 4 MEN BURNING ON THE SAME JOB USING THE 1 HOT WORK PERMIT IS THIS ACCEPTABLE?

SURELY 4 H/W PERMITS ARE NOT NEEDED FOR THE SAME JOB?

IS IT UPTO EACH INDIVIDUAL WORK SITE TO WHAT THEY ARE HAPPY WITH?

IF THE WORK CIRCUMSTANCES DO NOT ALTER IN ANY WAY,CAN OTHER WORKERS USE THIS PERMIT IF FROM THE SAME COMPANY AND CAN PROVE THEY ARE TRAINED FOR H/WORK.

FINALLY WHAT ABOUT OTHER COMPANYS USING THIS PERMIT IF ON THE SAME JOB?
ANY COMMENTS WOULD BE WELCOME,I DONT KNOW IF THIS IS A GREY AREA BUT IT GOT ME THINKING.

STEVE.

Posted By STEVE
HI STUART
ALL IM ASKING IS HOW MANY H/W PERMITS NEED TO BE ISSUED FOR A JOB THAT ENTAILS 3 TRAINED LEADBURNERS TO COMPLETE THE TASK IF THE LEADBURNER WHO FILLED OUT THE H/W PERMIT AT THE PERMIT STATION HAS TO LEAVE THE JOB THEY ARE ON.

BECAUSE HE HAS TO PUT HIS SIGNATURE ON THE H/W PERMIT IS HE THE ONLY ONE ABLE TO BURN, OR CAN THE OTHER 2 MEN CARRY ON BURNING WHILST HE IS AWAY.

THEY ARE NOT IN A CONFINED SPACE AND ALL OTHER SAFE SYSTEMS ARE IN PLACE.
I AM LEAD TO BELEIVE THAT ONLY THE LEADBURNER WITH HIS NAME ON THE PERMIT CAN DO THE BURNING IS THIS SO

OR DOES THE HOT WORK PERMIT COVER THE OTHER 2 MEN TO BURN WHILST HE IS AWAY,EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME AS WHEN HE WAS ON THE JOB.

HOPEFULLY THIS IS A BIT CLEARER TO WHAT IM ASKING.

STEVE

Posted By Stuart Nagle
Steve.

Thanks for getting back to me.

I think you need to examine and review your procedures on the issue of hot work permits if it is unclear what the criteria for works carried out on a hot work permit are and do not state the systems in place for the operation of the permit to work, i.e. who's the person in charge and what happens if s/he need to leave the site of the works (taking it that the person in charge is the signee on the permit issued.)

Under most normal systems, after competence is assessed, the work gang are normally categorised as:

1) A person in Charge (usually the most experienced/competent person), and

2) The Work Team members (other competent persons making up the working team.)

Any permit issue, including hot work, will be proceeded by a formal written risk assessment and a method for the work defined within a safety method statement.

The system (produced by the company/employer) should have been designed to cover the issue of Permits, how they are issued, who may issue, what is required before issue, the circumstances of issue, including what is required to happen when, say, the person in charge has to leave the site of the work for which the permit was issued.

It will also include the methods and reason for cancellation, the requirements to be followed to close up, make safe or shut down etc, and signing off of the permit to work and circumstances that require a new permit to be issued.

In answer to your question, in the systems I have dealt with/been responsible for, the permit to work is only issued to the person in charge (by an 'Authorised Person'). If at any time the person in charge is required to leave the site of the works, the works must be stopped, personnel involved in the works advised that the work has been stopped and for what reason, and that further works are not to be undertaken/not safe to be undertaken.

The person in charge should then sign off the permit to work and return it to the issuing authority/person.

(Any lock-offs/tag-outs are then, if necessary, taken off and plant etc retrurned to use - if posible.)

In such circumstances, before further works can proceed, a new permit to work will need to be issued (following further risk assessment etc.. as above), and only after all the necessary checks have again been undertaken and lock-offs, tag-outs etc been re-established, and it is safe, can works proceed.

As mentioned above, I suggest you re-visit the system and defined requirements for the issue of permits to work and assess their suitability here. it may be that you require to review systems and update/improve to ensure that the systems in place meet current standards/requirements. Obviously, if the people operating these systems are not aware of the requirements, it leaves a big hole in the company's safe systems of work !!!

The HSE web site has some information on permits to work and the systems that should be employed, which you may find useful.

Hope this is a help to you...

Merry Christmas....

Stuart Nagle

Posted By Merv Newman
An additional note on hot work permits :

I consider that the people who sign the permit, represantant of user company, responsable for the work, man in charge etc and the person who actually does the work sign to say that they accept joint responsibility for the safety of the operation. So, if one of the signatories is unable to continue supervising or carrying out the work, then the permit is no longer valid.

Merv Newman