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Posted By Joe Ridley
Hi,
I would appreciate some advice here, I have recently been given a remit which involves ensuring eight leisure facilities, which are managed by the trust I work for, are up to date with their health and safety arrangements. Prior to this new remit I worked in the capacity of monitoring officer for the trust, though I was mainly involved in quality and customer care. Having had a good look at the way things are being run at the moment, I can see many areas for improvement. The question is how do I go about it?
Unfortunately, my current position does not allow me to make any decisions without approval by a senior manager. I have also found that dealing with centre managers is proving to be difficult as they do not appreciate what I am trying to do and I suppose the on other thing that may be significant is I am below them in pay scale terms and therefore they “know better”.
So I feel as though I am up against it, I should maybe also point out I am also embarking on the level 4 NVQ in Health and Safety practice which I know will stand me in good stead. But how do I gain credibility with those above?
Any comments/thoughts/experiences would be appreciated
Cheers
Joe
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Posted By Allan St.John Holt
As I'm no longer a consultant, hopefully this response won't be taken the wrong way as touting for work!
You might consider suggesting hiring a consultant if it appears your own advice won't be taken seriously. The prophet in his own country and all that. The longer way round it is to make the managers do their own risk assessments (which they should be doing anyway) with your assistance and let them discover the issues for themselves.
Inviting the local EHO to visit for a chat may have a terminal effect on your career, but would probably give you a short cut one way or the other!
Good luck
Allan
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Posted By Neil Pearson
I deal with alot of companies on a consultancy basis, and come across this problem all the time. There is one way, and one way only, to resolve this. You have to persuade the senior management (above the level of the centre managers) to get involved.
You should design a management system that provides the senior management with the tools and information they need to achieve management control over the centres and their line management.
You should still be providing local support for the centres, but you will not get the best performance by tackling each centre on your own. The reason, you should explain, is that regardless of what you do (no offence!) the centre managers will still give priority to pressures from senior management.
Point out Reg 5 of MHSWR, and the fact that it requires a management system. Compare the senior managers' control over finance. Finally, show that you recognise the differences between directing, managing and supervising. You want to help them direct, but not spend lots of time managing.
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Posted By Geoff Burt
I agree with both the responses but having once being in a similar position I thought I'd jot down a couple of thoughts.
My first step would be to carry out an audit and risk assessments (you could consider purely risk assessments). That isn't going to cost them money initially and may be an acceptable way to approach it. You have to persuade your senior manager this is the only way.
It is the audit and the risk assessments that are the most important, it is then in black and white - as I see it your job is to point out the shortcomings (and the good stuff) but it is not up to you to get them done.
Once you have these in place, and they are seen to be be essential requirements and practical solutions, then you can approach senior management with priorities and timescales etc and show how you can assist in implementation.
Geoff
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Agree with Geoff for the most part but as you are shortly embarking on the NVQ4 recommend you do your risk assessments in 'NVQ4 speak' before presenting them. That is to say ...
You complete your risk assessment as normal but in your comments section you take the opportunity of writing which regs are being violated and the various scenarios that could arise through failure to control the hazards - this would normally go from very minor implications to quite serious ones depending on how complex the hazard(s) is. I know a lot of H&S people do this anyway, I do because of doing the NVQ4 but it is a very good habit to get into and will be needed for the course.
If you present this information to your management a bit at a time and let them digest it for a day then you may get a more positive response than if you just tell them what needs doing. Don't try to do it all at once. You are on the case, try to be methodical, either work by Leisure Centre or by department that runs through all 8 centres but don't attempt every area in every centre all at once - the management don't notice the money going out so much if it goes a bit at a time - by the time they notice it's pretty much a fait accompli and they have to continue with the programme.
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Allan mentioned the local EHO.
I've only done that once with a management who would not act on some very high risk areas.
I knew the HSE inspector (we had spoken a few times) and I thought I could ask her to come around and give me some backup and the management some friendly advice.
She ended up issuing two improvement notices straight after the visit (but for the nature of the work she would have issued prohibition notices).
However, it worked out very well and the management just got on with it.
I can imagine it would not go down too well in some organisations!
Hilary - I've never got on too well with laying out chapter and verse of the legal requirements, but I can see where you are coming from on it. I find the shorter the number of words the more effect they have - but again it depends on each individual circumstance.
There is also the point of addressing the higher priorities first in the assessment - then reviewing at a later date to pick up the less problematical areas. It might appear more managable to the managers if it is initially restricted to the major risk areas.
Geoff
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Posted By Lance Morgan
Great advice geoff and this is exactly what I did when I was i was first appointed. Departmental/Site Managers often don't want to know what is wrong with health and safety arrangements (if there are any) in their little kingdoms.
Do some inspections at each site and write reports for each with S.M.A.R.T Recommendations and give this to your boss. I bet he does'nt know what the status of H&S management is in the areas for which he is responsible (that's why he passed it onto you)look at the type and number of accidents and incidents and while your at it make recommendations that H&S responsibilities are included in everybodies job descriptions including your boss.
That should get the ball rolling and meet the expectations of your manager.
Good Luck
Lance
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Posted By Joe Ridley
Hi there,
Thanks to all who replied, I have found the advice and thoughts very helpful. I have deliberately taken a back seat for a week or so and assessed the situation as it stands and tried to look at it from all angles. Having done that and taken on board the advice shared here, I have decided to take each centre one at a time and carry out an audit then share the findings with senior management one at a time pointing out the good practices and the not so good. I have also decided to try out Hilary’s advice regarding quoting regs as I am doing the NVQ4, although I will try to present it in such a way that it is not patronising.
Since starting in this role I have found that I am expected to solve their problems and have the solutions, something that I am keen to discourage, as I am not the manager. I found that out quickly when the managers were asked to complete risk assessments in each of their centres, the reply was “that’s your job!” Eventually I had to have a meeting with the centre managers to explain my role after that I have not had many requests for advice or support. But then, once I have finished the audits that may change….
One other thing, I have considered going down the consultancy line and should things become more difficult that may be an option to use. I only have one reservation with this option and it is based on the fact that bringing in a consultant could invalidate my position, but on the other hand if I have done all I can then it could have the opposite effect by enhancing it as backing up what I have been saying all along.
The challenges are ahead, so here goes.
Thanks again all
Cheers
Joe
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Joe
I think you'll find a part of our job is to come up with solutions or at least suggestions on how to go about it. You'll be seen as the expert and need to work with them in solving any problems.
Good luck
Geoff
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Regretfully Joe, solutions are the other half of the job, finding a problem, discovering root cause and then looking at the options using the hierarchical controls of eliminate, substitute, control and protect in that order makes up the package of what we do. We also have to beg and grovel for the money for these things as well and justify it - you will find all these things are necessary to meet the requirements of the NVQ4.
Recommend you read the spec of the NVQ4 before you launch into this and see how these hazards can be used as part of this qualification (Unit 10 is finding the hazard and Unit 11 is eliminating it) - you will probably find that if you work the two items together you will come up with a system that is liked by the Management and acceptable for the NVQ.
I'm feeling like a bit of a lie down as I have just agreed with Geoff for about the third time today and it's a bit unnerving!
Hilary
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Posted By Rex Harrison
I can sympathise with you entirely, I'm faced with a similar situation.
I agree with Joe that it is part of our job to come up with realistic solutions, and securing, supporting and promoting management involvement is what makes the role challenging, (and frustrating).
You could try setting targets and objectives based on your systems so that these can be measured, and individual managers can then be compared. Hopefully this will encourage some kind of competitive spirit. Obviously these targets need to be set by the directors at the top - with the aid of your advise.
The downside is that you may be accused of picking on the poorly performing managers, but this will only occur if they do not perform their duties professionally.
I think often the route cause is poor management training.
Rex.
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Posted By Joe Ridley
I do agree part of my job will be to suggest and look for alternatives and help with any problems, it's when no one else is perpared to pitch in and help I get a little irritated. The way I see it it should be a 50/50 type of realtionship with both sides open minded and prepared to look at the bigger picture now and again.
As for begging for money...well as soon as it is mentioned the eyes roll and all the excuses come out, yet nothing is thought of in spending x amount on IT equipment etc...
Never mind it will be interesting to see how things go and I will be trying to get them to work with me.
Cheers
Joe
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Posted By Rex Harrison
Joe
We could be working for the same company :-)
Rex
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Hilary
It's even more worrying for me!
Geoff
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Posted By Neil Pearson
Both Rex and Geoff have talked about producing information for review by senior management. This is exactly why it is good to formalise the involvement of the directors. If they have senior management team meetings, this team can be made formally responsible for H&S.
Or it might be more appropriate to have a formal team of the centre managers, chaired by one senior person responsible for them all.
Standard agenda items can be added to review progress with actions from risk assessments, with accident investigations etc. But this needs to be set out in formal policy documents, approved by the senior management. As long as you approach the people the right way, you can't fail.
I have a few customers who are H&S Managers, and use me to provide external "reality checks" and to carry out the back-room work. It's just a question of resources really. I wouldn't recommend bringing in a consultant just to back up what you say. I think you are right that it might backfire. If you do use a consultant, ask them to help devise the right way to get the message across, but not to actually deliver the message.
Although I agree with everyone else in this thread, don't get too wrapped up in the technical safety issues. This is a management problem, not a technical problem.
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Posted By Geoff Burt
You're right Neil, although I can think of two cases where the external consultant has passed on the same message as the in-house guys - and got action.
All depends on the people involved but mainly, and as you say, it is how the message is put across.
Geoff
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Posted By Mary Fulton
Hi Joe,
I suggest you get the person(s) who have overall responsibility for the Trust to support you in this effort. Afterall, they must have given authorisation for this remit to be given to you.
Best of luck.
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