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Posted By Don Gilfoyle
I have recently stopped a job where the contractor, installing cavity wall insulation, was using a ladder as the sole means of access to height. I thought this unsafe and asked for another method that followed the guidance to the Construction (Health Safety and Welfare) Regs and was the result of a suitable and sufficient risk assessment. The contractor who works nationally claims that I am wrong and at odds with my colleagues countrywide. Am I?
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Posted By Graham Sargeant
Recently I was talking to an electrician who on site was told by a HSE inspector to put away the step ladders he was using to change light fittings at about 2.5mtr high and find a safer means of providing a work platform. I also have a copy of the draft Working at Heights Regulations which although not in force (any one please correct me if I'm wrong!), section 12 proposes ladders should be only used if you show by risk assessment there is no safer method, and also only for light and short duration work.
My view which I work to on sites is ladders for access only, and I so not allow them unless the user can have 3 points of contact on the ladder at all times, so certainly not for drilling or uses requiring two hands.
I will be interested to see what everyone else thinks.
ps. I have seen some pretty shoddy ladders in service, they're always worth a good inspection.
Graham
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Posted By Peter J Harvey
My understanding is that the Temporary Work at Heights Directive will be implemented through existing legislation.
Whilst I can not disagree I have to be honest and say that if the only time someone could use a ladder was for access and work where they can only use one hand and so maintain three points of contact, would we really get much work done?
As for changing a light bulb, there must be joke there somewhere, is a scaffold tower really required, all subjective and dependant on the working environment and time spent on the ladder i would guess.
Sound like a case of risks assessment and the application of site rules and common sense.
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Posted By Robert Paterson
Take on board everything that has been said.
Cavity wall insulation requires that holes be drilled at various heights around the building. The ideal would be to erect scaffolding around the property. Is that really practicable when the holes are drilled at possibly 2/3'apart.
Recently having done an inspection of a cavity wall site where a ladder was being used I made recommendation that a fixing could be put in an extra hole to attach the harness a workman would need to wear if he goes above 2 metres as required by law. This hole could be filled in as part of the operation. Does anyone know of such a fixing?
Some companies have fitted "limpets" to the ladders to prevent movement of the ladder whilst erected against a building and according to the HSE that appears to be acceptable. Seems to be a wee bit on inconsistency here with regard to the use of ladders. I think we need to look at the commonsense angle of the situation and risk assessment as there are many occupations where a ladder is the primary source of gaining access to height.
Kind Regards
Robert Paterson
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Posted By Paul Cook
I also take on board the points discussed,
But the issue of ladders for work or access must be done on a site spesific risk assesment basis, come on now, if you called a plumber because the high level cistern in your 4'x 5'upstairs loo was blocked would you really entertain him erecting a tower scaffold, or maybe he could just drive his MEWP up the stairs, after all, its not a busy building site but the plumber and his mate are still 'at work'.
One response mentioned the use of harnesses for works above 2 metres, i believe the regs now require the use of additional control measures (edge protection, toe boards, harnesses etc) 'where the risk of injury exists' as opposed to a pre-determined height.
The issue of a guy on a ladder installing his own fall arrest anchor points, then attaching to it, could be a bit of a dodgy one,
A 12mm certified eyebolt, resin fixed,into a concrete pillar, allowed to cure and then tested with a strain gauge, will in most cases be sufficient to sustain the force required (5KN i think ?) for a fall arest anchor, but a 12mm rawlbolt style eyebolt, placed in the (sand/lime) mortar line of a 200 year old house will, in most cases, probably not be sufficient.
Sky TV installers used to use a simalar system with some rubber expansion fittings so i guess their H&S dept. could probably help as they also have the ladders issue.
IRATA could help with the harnesses/ anchors/ testing issue.
Paul
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
My personal view is that ladder and stepladder use should be eliminated wherever there is a suitable alternative option - this is I believe where the HSE are driving. There are many suitable alternatives of varying types - not just the standard alloy tower. I personally also would like to see an end of access ladders in scaffolds with a move to temporary staircases within an access tower unless there is an absolute lack of space.
It really does come down to an assessment but the frequency of use and the probable locations do suggest that ladders are not a preferred option from my standpoint. The other side of the coin is also the widespread use of non-class 1 equipment in favour of the much lighter to carry domestic duty. I also have problems with those carrying a marked safe working load of 130kg - the guage of metal is the same, from feeling the weight, as an equivalent domestic class 3 set. The use of nets faced this resistance some years ago but ultimately it has become the norm.
As for the "everybody else does it this way" statement it is likely to be accurate but that is no reason not to change.
Bob
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Posted By Mark Eden
In the fire service training manual, when ascending/decending a ladder you keep two points on the ladder, ie left hand/left foot move together right hand/right foot still on the strings (rounds), you can work off the face of the ladder by taking a leg lock leaving both hands free to carry out a task, there is always a person footing the ladder when anybody is on the ladder. at no time does the ladder man wear a harness, either at an incident or the drill yard. ladder drills are carried out every day so everybody is up to scratch on ladder work. the most commonly used ladder is a lacon 135 (13.5 mtr triple extension ladder) which takes 4 people to put up and take down,are we not doing it correctly ?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I would hate to tell Fire Fighters how to use their ladders and especially in the situation of emergency actions. This is entirely different to the conscious choice to use a ladder where there are many suitable alternatives.
Bob
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Posted By Ken Taylor
I think you will agree that fire service ladders and their users are somewhat different to what we find in the construction and maintenance industries. The described HSE position with regard to the use of ladders has been around for some time in published and spoken guidance but actual practice has been rather different in many cases. I have had replacement window contractors attempting to undercut other tenderers by planning to work from ladders on 3-storey flats above shops over the public highway.
Risk assessment is essential at the planning stage and, if the work has to be by ladder, suitable, safe and inspected equipment, installation and use based upon training are necessary - including: tying or footing; not over-reaching or leaning out away from the vertical line of the ladder; and maintaining a secure hold on, or fixing to it. The CITB training material can be useful in this respect. Ladder stays/stand-offs may be of help with some tasks but take into account that DTI-commissioned research in 1999 found that, whilst those tested offered improvement in sideways slip-resistance, they also increased the horizontal force acting at the base - which increases the possibility of slippage if there is insufficient grip between the ladder and the ground.
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