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#1 Posted : 05 August 2003 16:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Cassidy
What is the general consensus on the British Safety Council's Dipoma in Safety Management? I would be especially interested to hear from those who have attained both IOSH Quals and British Safety Council ones too.
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#2 Posted : 05 August 2003 17:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By john ridley
Depends on what your objective really is Anthony. In my humble opinion, I think that generally people entering the profession look at what qualifications receive the broader acceptance by prospective employers. In the past the BSC were pushing IOSH hard under the championship of the now deceased and well respected John Tye, but since his sad demise the BSC appear to have lost ground.

Now with the Royal Charter status of IOSH, I think that many see this as the more appropriate vehicle for personal professional development in the H&S profession. I am not advocating any particular route, just voicing an opinion of what I think other perspectives are.

Personally I chose the IOSH route as I thought this was the more professional and respected organisation whilst also accepting that it was not necessatrily the easiest. Nothing worthwhile ever is though eh?

Hope this helps
John MIOSH (RSP) MIIRSM
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#3 Posted : 06 August 2003 09:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young
This is an old chestnut and responses tend to be mauled by activists from both camps. The reality is that the NEBOSH (not IOSH) qualifications and those Diplomas accredited by IOSH (not DipSM), tend to be looked upon as the better standard. I believe that this is confirmed by BSC as they accept TechSP level as a standard for full membership of IIRSM, which lends weight to this level being equivalent to DipSM. However, as has been stated on this site on many occasions, qualifications (knowledge) are only one part of the competence equation and experience and skills are just as important.
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#4 Posted : 06 August 2003 09:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Taylor
Get them both, Ian (but start with NEBOSH). Some employers ask for one and some another - not really knowing much about either.
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#5 Posted : 06 August 2003 11:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Martin Gray
I have undertaken the British Safety Council Diploma and am currently awaiting the results. The DipSM has been restructured and the new style now requires you to take the multi choice exam and also complete an assignment. The course and exam is also going through an accreditation process.

I chose the Dip SM because I find that I am not a person who cannot learn the exact wording of phrases required by NEBOSH, having failed the NEBOSH Certificate.

On the courses I attended there were a great deal of people who had taken the NEBOSH Certificate but have chosen to sit the BSC Dip SM.

The choice is yours and go with what ever you feel happier with.
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#6 Posted : 07 August 2003 10:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Simple,

both organisations have a part to play in H&S promotion!

However if you want a good job in H&S then all the advertisements are in the IOSH Magazine SHP and all ask for NEBOSH and IOSH.

BSC exam is multiple choice and NEBOSH is Degree Standard.

NVQ is modular and is very much hands on as well as theory.

at the end of the day what do you want? If its letters after your name quickly and easily then BSC and if you want academic learning then NEBOSH (IOSH).

If you want a big party in the House of Commins and a really big Diploma, and I mean Big, then BSC, if you want to put your career on the line and get mucked about by moderators then NEBOSH but the benefits are good. Risk V Reward

My own humble opinion go the NEBOSH or NVQ route if you want a career in H&S and BSC if you want to put this in your management toolbox.

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#7 Posted : 07 August 2003 11:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Smurfer
I think that says it all:

"BSC exam is multiple choice"

unfortunately in real life you won't get given a choice of answers when having to identify hazards/risk, so the ability to think for yourself is paramount. I think the NEBOSH exams, by putting you under a lot of pressure to think through your answer and then put it into words, more realistically replicates the 'real world'.

I don't think the NVQ route puts you under this pressure either - hence I figure the nebosh dip II is the more worthwhile qual.

Just my opinion (part 2 distinction last yr so slightly biased)
;-)

Andy
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#8 Posted : 08 August 2003 13:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Lewis T Roberts
David,

Please explain to the ignorant (me) how NEBOSH is comparable to degree standard?

Lew
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#9 Posted : 11 August 2003 11:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Because they expect a degree standard response to questions at the exam.

Probably explains why there is such a low pass rate as either examinees do not realise this or are not used to the exam technique.

There are very good H&S professionals out there who cannot get passed this hurdle and get stuck at Tech Sp nothing to do with domain knowledge but exam expectations.

Its good to get passed papers and study them in depth, answer them and then compare to the 'model answer' as it is 'SO' important and you can see what is wanted by the examiner not what you think is wanted, if that makes sense, after all it's about passing the exam not whether you are any good!!

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#10 Posted : 11 August 2003 11:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Just as an after thought, Before you take the NEBOSH Exams it is assumed that you have had a number of years OJT with a degree you are a raw recruit so to speak.
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#11 Posted : 11 August 2003 22:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Not completely convinced about that Dave.

How do you compare a 30 day long (one day a week over 30 weeks) Diploma course to a 3 year full time degree?

There is no doubt in my mind the content is to degree standard (having done both and found the degree work easier) but how do you balance the gross inequality of time?

Geoff
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#12 Posted : 12 August 2003 10:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By Hazel Harvey
This question of the equivalence of qualifications is one that features in a great number of discussions. The NEBOSH qualifications are regulated by the Qualifications Curriculum Authority (QCA) who actually have a framework of qualifications up to level 5. I have asked on many occasions at meeting s I have attended what is the equivalent level on their framework in terms of university qualifictions which are regulated by the Quality Assurance Agency (QAA). The answer I received was that the level 4 qualifictations equated to an HE Diploma, A Degree or An Honours Degree! Very explicit! The reality is I think that the NEBOSH Diploma is at a depth which would reflect degree level but does not have sufficient amount of content to equate to a whole degree. A bit like having a few degree level modules.
The QCA are currently revising their framework to be more explicit and level 4 will become (I think) levels 4,5,and 6 relating to the three university levels respectively, with 7 and 8 relating to post-graduate levels. Perhaps then this will give a better indication of the level of NEBOSH qualification. There is at least one university who will give exemption at Post-graduate level from their taught programme for holders of the NEBOSH Diploma. However, this is exceptional and the other accredited universities will not consider this, although they may well allow entry to the post-graduate programmes with a NEBOSH Diploma and experience. This implies that the universities believe that NEBOSH Dip is approximately degree level as the normal requirement for entry on to Post graduate programmes is first degree level.
To get back to the original question the current BSC Diploma does not meet IOSH accreditation requirements which are set at level 4 but a considerable programme of revision is taking place to the Diploma and I understand that QCA accreditation at level 4 and IOSH accreditation may well be applied for next year. However, this does not mean that the current BSC Diploma is of no value but if you want IOSH membership then currently it isn't accredited for this purpose although membership of IIRSM is available.
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#13 Posted : 12 August 2003 10:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason Gould
Dosn;t a Degree account for two years getting pi**ed and fratanising with young women.

Only Joking

I could not do 2nd dip nebosh due to funds but kept in touch with members of the Jammy group who get their course paid for by boss etc.

They aged double in those 30 weeks and 3 out of 15 passed 1st time.

As im not in a job at the moment im too continplating Uni or dip 2. I have the course work for the dip 2 and it looks daunting. Hell one of our tutors for dip1 failed dip 2 twice before passing.

Youve got to give it Nebosh they make sure you revise learn and understand.

The only thing that has annoyed me is tutors stating get the certificate and you'll walk into a £16000 Do the diplomas youll get £25000 I got cert and dip 1 and not succeded in getting £15000 yet.

And this thought is leading me to consider the degree route as i have noticed that post grads get more opportunities than nebosh owners.

I am waiting for some compensation to come through and ill do both to be on the safe side.

All I can say is good luck to everyone whichever route they take.

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#14 Posted : 12 August 2003 11:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
It all depends on the type of degree, you telling me a Degree in H&S is 3 years full time Mon - Fri 9 - 5 every day! Thats a lot of school time! (My dip in Env Health was 3 years full time mon to fri 9-5 and OJT at the LA when not in lectures, 7 x 3 hour written exams, 4 x 2hour practicals, a Viva and 25k word dissertation all within a month at the end! and exams a the end of every year and if you didnt pass then out you go matey!

degrees are no longer the onerous thing which we may think they are.

My daughter is doing a BA(Hons) in Criminal Justice and Social Policy 3 year course my big large bahooky.

9 hours a week in lectures and 4 hours in Tutorials, have to do assignments and examined on continious assessment!

The NEBOSH Dip is a degree standard exam ask any one who has done both and passed both, OK the actual 'classroom time' is only about 4 to 6 weeks tops but you need the 5 or 6 years experience behind you before attempting and I would suggets some mentoring in exam techniques, coz if you don't then the chances are you will fail.

'only 3 out of 15 passed' is this bad teaching and preparation or poor application from the students? Whichever way its not good, ask the course providers for proof of their success rate, its the only way to get an idea if they are any good. Got MIOSH teach NEBOSH Dip and the lecturer failed twice does that not say something?

As for getting higher salaries if you pass, thats garbage just look at the SHP every month, some do some dont it all depends on what the employer is after and what they can get away with in my opinion.(do admit you have a better chance of getting a job though!)
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#15 Posted : 12 August 2003 13:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By janette shaw
Having completed the BSC diploma & now being half way through my NEBOSH Dip2 I suppose im in a good position to comment on the differences.

Really it's down to what you need from the course!

I found the BSC diploma to be far more practical. It gave me a detailed idea of how to put safety INTO PRACTICE. On the course they bring in a range of specialists who DO THE JOB. They give you methods of resolving issues & talk about common problems. The Occ Health section was much better than NEBOSH 1 & 2- the chemical section was a great!

I find the NEBOSH courses to be far more theory, Im rarely given information I can take straight back into my workplace & use. We rarely discuss new legislation that's coming through and what we are going to do about it. The assignments are not real life at all and I don't feel they help me progress- its also extremely annoying to wait 12 weeks for an essay to go through the marking procedure & for it to loose 27%!!!!!

On the multi choice exam- all I can say is I actually find this harder than a written exam- on normal exam questions you can guarantee yourself a few marks on something you know nothing about by thinking logically- I always find including risk assessment & information, instruction & training will get you the odd mark! In the multi choice I was often left with 2 choices- so you had to know the correct answer or NO MARKS.

Yes H&S isnt a multi choice - but then again Ive never had to quote all the case law I learnt parrot fashion for NEBOSH!!!!!!

Neither diploma is anything like the level of work involved in my science degree-lectures & labs alone were 9-6 in first year & 10 hours of homework/ lab write ups- its the juggling bit between work & studies that I struggle with!

Many employees will specify NEBOSH diploma or equivalent- and that means BSC diploma!
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#16 Posted : 12 August 2003 13:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Cassidy
To add to the debate, I have completed the BSC Diploma have a HNC and I am in the final year of a degree course. I have found the level of application required to be the same across all three levels. With the BSC multi choice scenario there's no room for flannel, you either know the answer or you don't. The examiner has no room for discression (as with narratives) and with a pass mark greater than 80% required based on nearly 600 questions you need to know your stuff.

PS this debate turned out more interesting than I thought it would, cheers.
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#17 Posted : 12 August 2003 13:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
I agree to a certain extent but the last sentance, If your BSC dip is equal to the NEBOSH Dip then why are you doing NEBOSH?

I am afraid that you are mistaken and the amount of work you will need to put in to get the Pt2 is staggering and nothing like the BSC Diploma, get some past papers and have a look.

Anyway still an old chestnut
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#18 Posted : 12 August 2003 14:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
So there is no room for expression and interpretation then! like you said its either you know or you dont, be honest how many did you guess? With the other routes you need to know the subject in depth and you are tested on that.

Can just see the bomb disposal expert, red or green or maybe blue?

same question Anthony if you believe the BSC is that good why you doing more? and why is it not recognised by IOSH?

The NEBOSH/NVQ/MSc H&S is the route to MIOSH,RSP and in future years the 'CSP' which will require that standard and the BSC Dip does not equate! Its fact, not an opinion read Hazels posting.

I'm not knocking holders of the BSC Dip as it has its place in the safety world but it isn't and never has been the 'choice of the H&S Professional'.

I can get MIIRSM with NEBOSH Dip however BSC Dip holders cant get MIOSH!
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#19 Posted : 12 August 2003 14:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Cassidy
Dave,

in response to why am I doing more? It is because it's in Business Studies and I believe H&S practitioners or other experts for that matter need to understand the strategic fit of H&S in the business environment, a believer in continual improvement also means applying this to your self.

In answer to how many did I guess? The answer is non, with a passmark of 80% required there's no scope for guessing.

What good to any organisation is it to be able to quote reams of legislation if it can't be put into practice. For example my brother is a recent Law graduate, he can quote Denning & Woolf et al for hours but couldn't do a risk assessment or implement improvements and change mindsets of the unwilling or uninitiated to save his life.

Wasn't it Einstein who said something about books being the place to find information and using the brain for something more creative??

I haven't done any NEBOSH qualifications and chose the BSC for the reasons of workable application and real life management their course I believe delivered. As such I am not qualified first hand to draw comparisons and defend either camp between the two.

What I am finding, and hence the reason for me posting a very open question, is that in some scenarios the H&S world is a closed shop without IOSH / NEBOSH recognition and I think it's going stay that way.

I have come to the opinion though that in the next few years the BSC will become marginalised especially with the advent of Chartered status, and it will be a case no MIOSH no job.

The more enlightened employers though are more interested on what you can achieve and deliver.
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#20 Posted : 12 August 2003 15:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Cant agree more mate as I would advocate an MBA as the next step so that professional H&S people can really integarte into the board room and help and make strategic decisions for their employer and I think what you are doing is the way forward.

I'm trying my hardest here not to 'slag' off the BSC Dip but I would say that any MIOSH,RSP can sit their exam tomorrow and pass, wouldn't have the same confidence if the roles were reversed.

As far a Safety Criminal & Civil legislation goes you most certainly need to know this as how can you say what impact any decision can have and the likely damage this may have on your business if you do not understand this basic priciple, and know about the precedent cases, as this area is very fluid and moves with the times.

I will have to admit that I cannot quote legislation parrot fashion as if I want to know exactly I will look it up, but did know for my exams

IOSH is not a closed shop so to speak but it is the 'Institution' of choice, but that is the same in most other 'Professional' trades and as such must move with the times, eg Chartered status and all that malarky.

Cant see an emminent surgeon not having FRCS etc or Building Surveyor without CIBSE or EHO without MCIEH but always wary of H&S people with MIIRSM or god forbid AIIRSM after theitr name and not a lot else.

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#21 Posted : 12 August 2003 17:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Patrick Keady
I've worked in health and safety for 15 years, 12 of which are in the NHS. My route into IOSH was via the NEBOSH Diploma and the Diploma syllabus and method of examination suited me down to the ground !

The principles set out in it have been and continue to be incredibly useful in my various roles including, health and safety adviser, risk manager and head of healthcare governance.

That said, whilst reading this discussion, an article came to mind that I thought might be of interest. While it discuses the merits of multiple choice, short answers and essay questions as they apply in the world of medicine, my view is that the principles set out in it, also apply in the world of health and safety. The article is available at:

http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/326/7390/643

I would appreciate your views.

many thanks,

Patrick Keady


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#22 Posted : 14 August 2003 16:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Mackessack
Am I the only one?

I recently quoted R v Associated Octel to some of our plant managers after an audit discovered a very similar scenario emerging through our systems.

I condensed the transcript from the House of Lords and let 'em look at it.

It did more to focus their minds than any amount of wittering from me would've done without it!

So knowing a few case studies can be useful. (Thankyou NEBOSH)

John

ps. I know several safety practitioners who went a different route to NEBOSH and they are all good at what they do. But they freely admit that they took their own routes (NVQ & BSC) after NEBOSH Certificate because they hate exams and had been spooked by the certificate.
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#23 Posted : 15 August 2003 09:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Cassidy
My point really was the difference between knowing how to manage and knowing where to look for information, of course case law is important.
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#24 Posted : 15 August 2003 09:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Patrick,

A very interesting document you found that explains the pro's & cons of multiple choice & essay type questions.

Perhaps there is room for both examining boards to change their style.

Hang on, that's a stupid suggestion, can you imagine all the arguments about mark inflation & devaluing of qualifications that would follow.

I personally think that the essay style more realistically reflects the way I work, because of the number of times I have had to prepare a reasoned report for the board on the business implications of a particular piece of H&S legislation.

But then I guess it depends at what level you are working in an organisation, because straight forward yes/ no responses are quite often required on the shop floor.
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#25 Posted : 15 August 2003 10:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young
So Jonathan,

Are you suggesting that those safety professionals who undertake the BSC Diploma can't write reports?
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#26 Posted : 15 August 2003 10:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Not at all & I apologise if my comment was interpreted thus.

What I meant was, in my personal experience (which is all I have) the practice I gained in my exams (NTU Diploma rather than NEBOSH Diploma - so I have no axe to grind), helped me greatly when it came to writing board reports.

My comments should also be read in the light of the report highlighted by Patrick Keady in his post.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

Jon
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#27 Posted : 15 August 2003 11:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Like I said before
Multiple choice
Modular
essay exams

The point being they are diffirent and one doesnt give you a quality recognised qualification from the leading body for H&S professionals.

What do you want to get out of the training you are doing? A job and then experience?

BSC dip holders with no other H&S qualifications will probably find this more onerous, it's a fact, the BSC Dip may be in some peoples opinion good but not in the eyes of industry and H&S Professionals.

Not to decry NEBOSH Cert as well but this does not and was never intended to be a qualification for practicing H&S professionals. It is difficult for the 'layman' who has had no exposure to H&S but to all of you who passed, well done and your career starts here, get some more experience and NEBOSH pt1&2 or NVQ / H&S Degree if you really want to progress.

You will not believe the prospecive applicatnts for H&S Advisor / Manager with only this qualification and then get miffed when they do not even get an interview.
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#28 Posted : 15 August 2003 11:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Cassidy
For those who don't like the BSC Diploma, what is it about the content, you don't like?
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#29 Posted : 15 August 2003 11:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Anthony,

Its nothing to do with the content or exams its about what it gets you at the end of it!

It doesn't get you MIOSH which is what 'safety professionals' are after. The other H&S training routes do.
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#30 Posted : 15 August 2003 12:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
In a round about way if you took both you would get the best of both worlds.

The only gripe I had with the NEBOSH Diploma (apart from the Micky Mouse organisation doing it)was that if was all lecture room based and, I felt, was not based in the real world. But neither are a lot of subjects and it gave me the background I needed to then apply it practically.

But Dave is right (that's a first!) it is the main recognised professional qualification in this field and in addition the emphasis on theory will give you a much better understanding of the management side of H&S.

There has been some criticism of the law side of the NEBOSH Diploma. My experience discounts that. I've found it invaluable in not necessarily quoting it but in understanding the different facets of H&S and how the law relates to practical implementation and everyday arrangements.

Conclusion - go for the NEBOSH Diploma or equivalent. Doing the BSC Diploma wouldn't be wasted in terms of knowledge gained but in general terms it would slow you down career wise.



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#31 Posted : 15 August 2003 23:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Smurfer
I agree with Geoff re the law - it was a definite eye-opener for me but well worth it. The law module is probably the most important module to convince employers to spend the money on sending you on the course!
Andy
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#32 Posted : 19 August 2003 14:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Patrick Keady
Jonathan,

I agree that both approaches are required by H&S professionals i.e. reasoned essay-type responses for the Boardroom and senior managers and yes/no answers for the shop floor.

Perhaps the ideal exam would be of two compulsory parts with the first section consisting of approx 25 compulsory multiple choice questions and the second section with a choice of essay questions.

many thanks,

Patrick.
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#33 Posted : 20 August 2003 13:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Diane Thomason
Geoff Burt says of the Nebosh Dip that "it was all lecture room based and, I felt, was not based in the real world."

This may have been the case with the "old diploma" but regarding the 2-part current one I beg to disagree.

We tend to talk about only the exams and forget the assignments. By the time you've finished the two-part Dip you will have done 10 assignments, two per module, five of 2,500 words for the Part 1 and five of 4,000 words for the Part 2. The pass mark for each one is 60%. These are far from being like school essays! At least 3 of each 5 must be work-based and they are very practical in nature.

The Dip1 ones tend to be based on doing something like a risk assessment or workplace inspection; the Part 2's are more complex and can involve e.g. an ergonomic study on a semi-automatic machine, in a real work situation, or a workplace violence "audit". For my part 2 four of the five were work-based and they involve a hell of a lot of work in the actual workplace to do your investigations. Generally the reports have to be in a report-to-management format so you have to set out findings, make recommendations to management bearing in mind costs and priorities, etc.

So there is an awful lot of practical work involved and I reckon someone who had no experience in practical H&S would find it very beneficial and a real eye-opener.

Diane

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#34 Posted : 20 August 2003 14:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By James
Hi,

To perhaps look at this from a slightly different perspective I have found that it depends on where you want to work and in what industry.

In the UK I would agree that MIOSH is becoming the preferred standard for many large companies, however on the international scene this is not the case.

With many overseas Oil, Gas, Engineering and Construction companies the Dip SM is the preferred qualification and many have never heard of IOSH. This may well be due to the visible presence of the BSC with training centres and consultants in Middle East and Asia, also their particular focus on the needs of the overseas market with their International Dip SM.

The Dip SM is also recognised and accepted in many countries for registration as a safety professional / licensed practitioner and membership of professional institutions such as the American Society of Safety Engineers and the World Safety Organisation in Asia.

Many companies are familiar with the BSC from the other services they offer, HS&E Consultancy, OHSAS 18001 compliance auditing, Risk assessment, Information services, Company membership etc. So when they come to recruit a safety practitioner themselves they tend to give preference to one with a qualification from an organisation which they recognise may well be a member of or have used in the past.

So as a previous poster said it really is horses for courses depending on where you want to work, however it should also be noted that if high earnings are your objective then the money HS&E practitioners can get in the Middle East and other Oil regions is 3-4 times that of the average in the UK.

James
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#35 Posted : 20 August 2003 14:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
You're right Diane. I'm guilty of talking about my own experience of the Diploma in 1990/1. Things have changed a bit (more like a lot) since then.

If there is more practical content in it now that's all for the better.

Geoff

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#36 Posted : 20 August 2003 14:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
James - assuming an average in the UK is £25K, is then the average in your scenario £75K to £100K (and tax free).

If it is I'm surprised there is anyone left here to contribute to this forum!

Geoff
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#37 Posted : 20 August 2003 14:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By James
Yes, that’s about right for someone with the Oil industry experience and qualifications.

Of course there are hardships and sometimes risks associated with working in some of these countries as well as long hours and being away from your family.

Not everyone’s ideal role regardless of the money.

James
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#38 Posted : 22 August 2003 08:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young
Geoff,

I thought when you got your H&S qualification, it was called a papyrus not a diploma and the exam format was multi choice Hieroglyphics...
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#39 Posted : 22 August 2003 10:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
If there is anyone out there who wants to pay me that then please feel free to contact as I will work anywhere for that amount of beer tokens! I'm serious!
MIOSH,RSP,MRSH Spec Dip Env Man
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#40 Posted : 22 August 2003 12:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
I have to admit Ron that in those days papyrus was pronounced pap e rus, and not like nowadays pap i rus. But I'm sure you knew that!

How's your sister, did she get over the snail in her lemonade? There's been some lawyers in London getting excited about her case. They're talking about something called a 'precedent'. With a bit of luck she might turn into a 'celebrity'.

Geoff
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