Posted By john ridley
Depends on what your objective really is Anthony. In my humble opinion, I think that generally people entering the profession look at what qualifications receive the broader acceptance by prospective employers. In the past the BSC were pushing IOSH hard under the championship of the now deceased and well respected John Tye, but since his sad demise the BSC appear to have lost ground.

Now with the Royal Charter status of IOSH, I think that many see this as the more appropriate vehicle for personal professional development in the H&S profession. I am not advocating any particular route, just voicing an opinion of what I think other perspectives are.

Personally I chose the IOSH route as I thought this was the more professional and respected organisation whilst also accepting that it was not necessatrily the easiest. Nothing worthwhile ever is though eh?

Hope this helps
John MIOSH (RSP) MIIRSM

Posted By Ken Taylor
Get them both, Ian (but start with NEBOSH). Some employers ask for one and some another - not really knowing much about either.

Posted By Dave Wilson
Simple,

both organisations have a part to play in H&S promotion!

However if you want a good job in H&S then all the advertisements are in the IOSH Magazine SHP and all ask for NEBOSH and IOSH.

BSC exam is multiple choice and NEBOSH is Degree Standard.

NVQ is modular and is very much hands on as well as theory.

at the end of the day what do you want? If its letters after your name quickly and easily then BSC and if you want academic learning then NEBOSH (IOSH).

If you want a big party in the House of Commins and a really big Diploma, and I mean Big, then BSC, if you want to put your career on the line and get mucked about by moderators then NEBOSH but the benefits are good. Risk V Reward

My own humble opinion go the NEBOSH or NVQ route if you want a career in H&S and BSC if you want to put this in your management toolbox.

Posted By Lewis T Roberts
David,

Please explain to the ignorant (me) how NEBOSH is comparable to degree standard?

Lew

Posted By Dave Wilson
Just as an after thought, Before you take the NEBOSH Exams it is assumed that you have had a number of years OJT with a degree you are a raw recruit so to speak.

Posted By Hazel Harvey
This question of the equivalence of qualifications is one that features in a great number of discussions. The NEBOSH qualifications are regulated by the Qualifications Curriculum Authority (QCA) who actually have a framework of qualifications up to level 5. I have asked on many occasions at meeting s I have attended what is the equivalent level on their framework in terms of university qualifictions which are regulated by the Quality Assurance Agency (QAA). The answer I received was that the level 4 qualifictations equated to an HE Diploma, A Degree or An Honours Degree! Very explicit! The reality is I think that the NEBOSH Diploma is at a depth which would reflect degree level but does not have sufficient amount of content to equate to a whole degree. A bit like having a few degree level modules.
The QCA are currently revising their framework to be more explicit and level 4 will become (I think) levels 4,5,and 6 relating to the three university levels respectively, with 7 and 8 relating to post-graduate levels. Perhaps then this will give a better indication of the level of NEBOSH qualification. There is at least one university who will give exemption at Post-graduate level from their taught programme for holders of the NEBOSH Diploma. However, this is exceptional and the other accredited universities will not consider this, although they may well allow entry to the post-graduate programmes with a NEBOSH Diploma and experience. This implies that the universities believe that NEBOSH Dip is approximately degree level as the normal requirement for entry on to Post graduate programmes is first degree level.
To get back to the original question the current BSC Diploma does not meet IOSH accreditation requirements which are set at level 4 but a considerable programme of revision is taking place to the Diploma and I understand that QCA accreditation at level 4 and IOSH accreditation may well be applied for next year. However, this does not mean that the current BSC Diploma is of no value but if you want IOSH membership then currently it isn't accredited for this purpose although membership of IIRSM is available.

Posted By Dave Wilson
It all depends on the type of degree, you telling me a Degree in H&S is 3 years full time Mon - Fri 9 - 5 every day! Thats a lot of school time! (My dip in Env Health was 3 years full time mon to fri 9-5 and OJT at the LA when not in lectures, 7 x 3 hour written exams, 4 x 2hour practicals, a Viva and 25k word dissertation all within a month at the end! and exams a the end of every year and if you didnt pass then out you go matey!

degrees are no longer the onerous thing which we may think they are.

My daughter is doing a BA(Hons) in Criminal Justice and Social Policy 3 year course my big large bahooky.

9 hours a week in lectures and 4 hours in Tutorials, have to do assignments and examined on continious assessment!

The NEBOSH Dip is a degree standard exam ask any one who has done both and passed both, OK the actual 'classroom time' is only about 4 to 6 weeks tops but you need the 5 or 6 years experience behind you before attempting and I would suggets some mentoring in exam techniques, coz if you don't then the chances are you will fail.

'only 3 out of 15 passed' is this bad teaching and preparation or poor application from the students? Whichever way its not good, ask the course providers for proof of their success rate, its the only way to get an idea if they are any good. Got MIOSH teach NEBOSH Dip and the lecturer failed twice does that not say something?

As for getting higher salaries if you pass, thats garbage just look at the SHP every month, some do some dont it all depends on what the employer is after and what they can get away with in my opinion.(do admit you have a better chance of getting a job though!)

Posted By Anthony Cassidy
To add to the debate, I have completed the BSC Diploma have a HNC and I am in the final year of a degree course. I have found the level of application required to be the same across all three levels. With the BSC multi choice scenario there's no room for flannel, you either know the answer or you don't. The examiner has no room for discression (as with narratives) and with a pass mark greater than 80% required based on nearly 600 questions you need to know your stuff.

PS this debate turned out more interesting than I thought it would, cheers.

Posted By Dave Wilson
So there is no room for expression and interpretation then! like you said its either you know or you dont, be honest how many did you guess? With the other routes you need to know the subject in depth and you are tested on that.

Can just see the bomb disposal expert, red or green or maybe blue?

same question Anthony if you believe the BSC is that good why you doing more? and why is it not recognised by IOSH?

The NEBOSH/NVQ/MSc H&S is the route to MIOSH,RSP and in future years the 'CSP' which will require that standard and the BSC Dip does not equate! Its fact, not an opinion read Hazels posting.

I'm not knocking holders of the BSC Dip as it has its place in the safety world but it isn't and never has been the 'choice of the H&S Professional'.

I can get MIIRSM with NEBOSH Dip however BSC Dip holders cant get MIOSH!

Posted By Dave Wilson
Cant agree more mate as I would advocate an MBA as the next step so that professional H&S people can really integarte into the board room and help and make strategic decisions for their employer and I think what you are doing is the way forward.

I'm trying my hardest here not to 'slag' off the BSC Dip but I would say that any MIOSH,RSP can sit their exam tomorrow and pass, wouldn't have the same confidence if the roles were reversed.

As far a Safety Criminal & Civil legislation goes you most certainly need to know this as how can you say what impact any decision can have and the likely damage this may have on your business if you do not understand this basic priciple, and know about the precedent cases, as this area is very fluid and moves with the times.

I will have to admit that I cannot quote legislation parrot fashion as if I want to know exactly I will look it up, but did know for my exams

IOSH is not a closed shop so to speak but it is the 'Institution' of choice, but that is the same in most other 'Professional' trades and as such must move with the times, eg Chartered status and all that malarky.

Cant see an emminent surgeon not having FRCS etc or Building Surveyor without CIBSE or EHO without MCIEH but always wary of H&S people with MIIRSM or god forbid AIIRSM after theitr name and not a lot else.

Posted By John Mackessack
Am I the only one?

I recently quoted R v Associated Octel to some of our plant managers after an audit discovered a very similar scenario emerging through our systems.

I condensed the transcript from the House of Lords and let 'em look at it.

It did more to focus their minds than any amount of wittering from me would've done without it!

So knowing a few case studies can be useful. (Thankyou NEBOSH)

John

ps. I know several safety practitioners who went a different route to NEBOSH and they are all good at what they do. But they freely admit that they took their own routes (NVQ & BSC) after NEBOSH Certificate because they hate exams and had been spooked by the certificate.

Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Patrick,

A very interesting document you found that explains the pro's & cons of multiple choice & essay type questions.

Perhaps there is room for both examining boards to change their style.

Hang on, that's a stupid suggestion, can you imagine all the arguments about mark inflation & devaluing of qualifications that would follow.

I personally think that the essay style more realistically reflects the way I work, because of the number of times I have had to prepare a reasoned report for the board on the business implications of a particular piece of H&S legislation.

But then I guess it depends at what level you are working in an organisation, because straight forward yes/ no responses are quite often required on the shop floor.

Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Not at all & I apologise if my comment was interpreted thus.

What I meant was, in my personal experience (which is all I have) the practice I gained in my exams (NTU Diploma rather than NEBOSH Diploma - so I have no axe to grind), helped me greatly when it came to writing board reports.

My comments should also be read in the light of the report highlighted by Patrick Keady in his post.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

Jon

Posted By Anthony Cassidy
For those who don't like the BSC Diploma, what is it about the content, you don't like?

Posted By Geoff Burt
In a round about way if you took both you would get the best of both worlds.

The only gripe I had with the NEBOSH Diploma (apart from the Micky Mouse organisation doing it)was that if was all lecture room based and, I felt, was not based in the real world. But neither are a lot of subjects and it gave me the background I needed to then apply it practically.

But Dave is right (that's a first!) it is the main recognised professional qualification in this field and in addition the emphasis on theory will give you a much better understanding of the management side of H&S.

There has been some criticism of the law side of the NEBOSH Diploma. My experience discounts that. I've found it invaluable in not necessarily quoting it but in understanding the different facets of H&S and how the law relates to practical implementation and everyday arrangements.

Conclusion - go for the NEBOSH Diploma or equivalent. Doing the BSC Diploma wouldn't be wasted in terms of knowledge gained but in general terms it would slow you down career wise.

Posted By Patrick Keady
Jonathan,

I agree that both approaches are required by H&S professionals i.e. reasoned essay-type responses for the Boardroom and senior managers and yes/no answers for the shop floor.

Perhaps the ideal exam would be of two compulsory parts with the first section consisting of approx 25 compulsory multiple choice questions and the second section with a choice of essay questions.

many thanks,

Patrick.

Posted By James
Hi,

To perhaps look at this from a slightly different perspective I have found that it depends on where you want to work and in what industry.

In the UK I would agree that MIOSH is becoming the preferred standard for many large companies, however on the international scene this is not the case.

With many overseas Oil, Gas, Engineering and Construction companies the Dip SM is the preferred qualification and many have never heard of IOSH. This may well be due to the visible presence of the BSC with training centres and consultants in Middle East and Asia, also their particular focus on the needs of the overseas market with their International Dip SM.

The Dip SM is also recognised and accepted in many countries for registration as a safety professional / licensed practitioner and membership of professional institutions such as the American Society of Safety Engineers and the World Safety Organisation in Asia.

Many companies are familiar with the BSC from the other services they offer, HS&E Consultancy, OHSAS 18001 compliance auditing, Risk assessment, Information services, Company membership etc. So when they come to recruit a safety practitioner themselves they tend to give preference to one with a qualification from an organisation which they recognise may well be a member of or have used in the past.

So as a previous poster said it really is horses for courses depending on where you want to work, however it should also be noted that if high earnings are your objective then the money HS&E practitioners can get in the Middle East and other Oil regions is 3-4 times that of the average in the UK.

James

Posted By Geoff Burt
James - assuming an average in the UK is £25K, is then the average in your scenario £75K to £100K (and tax free).

If it is I'm surprised there is anyone left here to contribute to this forum!

Geoff

Posted By Ron Young
Geoff,

I thought when you got your H&S qualification, it was called a papyrus not a diploma and the exam format was multi choice Hieroglyphics...

Posted By Geoff Burt
I have to admit Ron that in those days papyrus was pronounced pap e rus, and not like nowadays pap i rus. But I'm sure you knew that!

How's your sister, did she get over the snail in her lemonade? There's been some lawyers in London getting excited about her case. They're talking about something called a 'precedent'. With a bit of luck she might turn into a 'celebrity'.

Geoff