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Posted By Pat Burns
I am currently carrying out a research of incidents in car parks involving pedestrians (store employees and members of public) who have been struck by a motor vehicle in the car park which has resulted in a prosecution on the store. Unlike prosecutions carried forward by the HSE this information does not appear to be readily available for interogation on the HSE/LA website.
Any assistance would be of value.
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Pat
I'm not completely sure about this but if the car parks are private can a person or the store commit a prosecutable offence that would come under the remit of the HSE or the Road Traffic Act?
Geoff
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Agree Geoff, don't think that 'persons in control of premises' could be held responsible for RTA incidents on private land.
Suppose the Police may investigate if a crime against the person had been committed.
Couldn't see what H&S statute would be broken for HSE to Prosecute, anyway it wouldn't be HSE but LA as the main business is 'retail' so enforcement will be undertaken by the LA as per the H&S Enforcement Regs.
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Posted By Pat Burns
Thanks so far folks for your replies to date. I would have thought that the following would apply as in the workplace.
Supermarket called X has a car park for customers to use to park their cars whilst shopping. This may be on a lease agreement or be owned by the supermarket chain.
two incidents occur.
Incident 1. Store employee is collecting trolleys and is struck by vehicle. he store employee dies as a result of the incident. In accordance with the current code of practice for investigating incidents the police and LA carry out an investigation which finds the supermarket in breach of statute for failing to ensure segregation of employee from vehicular movements in car park.
Incident 2. Member of public is returning to car after putting away the shopping trolley. There can be two scenarios to this incident. A vehicle driven erratically by a store employee who doe home deliveries on behalf of the store is fatally injured. Who leads the case? is it the LA or police.
Scenario 2 the member of public is struck by another vehicle driven by a member of the public in the same set up. Is it a road traffic offence or an offence under the Health and safety at work Act and supporting Regulations.
Now you have a clearer picture please feel free to comment.
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Posted By Martin Gray
From a police perspective. Incidents involving pedestrians and a motor vehicle in a carpark that are reported to the police can result in a prosecution of the offender under the Road Traffic Act. If the police investigation found that the owner of the car park was a contributor to the incident it would be reported in the accident investigation report but there are no powers for the police to prosecute the owner (it would be a matter for the civil courts).
In the case of both incidents the police have primacy as it is a crime scene and there is a potential for a criminal offence to have been committed. Both are offences under the road traffic act.
The findings of the police collision investigators would be recorded and be made available to the insurance company, which they would no doubt pass on to the owner of the property.
If you want to ring me please do. 01242 276411
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Martin
Do the police have jurisdiction on private land under the RTA?
I don't have a copy to look at but I've always understood they do not. I also sat on a Jury several years ago where this was argued and found against the police - in that particular case because they had not been invited on the land.
Geoff
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Posted By Martin Gray
Geoff
For the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (as amended) the term 'public place' is the guidance.
'Any place to which the public have open access is a public place, even if payment must be made to gain entry'
In the cases stated by Pat as the public have direct and unrestricted access to the car park of the superstore it is a public place and therefore any road traffic collision will be investigated by the police. This was also raised in a previous posting in this forum with regards to school premises, and public access.
There are many test cases on this subject but the goverment have tried to close the loopholes in the amendments to the Road Traffic Act in 1991, and also the Law Lords ruling in 1998 defining the meaning of a road. (Cutter v Eagle Star and Clarke v Kato elaborated on the 4 basic principles which determine what is and what is not a road.
Hope this assists.
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Posted By Anthony Cassidy
Who in this scenario is responsible for ensuring that speed limits are adhered to?
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Posted By Pat Burns
This is a good point. A lot of older car parks that I have entered don't actually display any speed signs at the approach junction or inside. Lets say the limit is marked on the road as 10mph. Who woud be responsible for enforcing it particularly if it is in a public place. If it was a privately owned car park I would say it would be down to the owner.
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Posted By Martin Gray
Any speed limit on private property would be the responsibility of the owner of that property. Speed limit signs on private property are in reality are only advisory as they are not enforcable in a court of law.
In order for the police to enforce a speed limit there must be a traffic order in place which sets the speed limit and any other restrictions that might apply.
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