Posted By Chris Abbott I have read, with much delight, the interesting debates put forward by many of my peers in the safety world. I think it was Dave Wilson who wrote that he was suspicious/dubious <-- please don't be offended if I miss quoted you - about holders of MIIRSM or "god-forbid" AIIRSM. As a Holder of AIIRSM myself, I was somewhat disappointed by this statement, as I see it as the first step for me to gain some foot-hold in the Safety Industry. Having been an IT Specialist for 10 years, I became interested in safety - partly because we had no "safe systems of work", partly because the Blue Chip company I worked for introduced its first RoES group - of which I chaired for 3 years. Now, I hold the NEBOSH GC and am part-way through the Advanced Diploma in Health & Safety Management (a Royal Society for the Promotion of Health QCA regulated NVQ L3). I am considering my next step, as I do not see that this course will be my last. I am deeply concerned by the level of "basic", practical skills displayed by managers and by certain senior members of organisations. I know at least 3 safety professionals whom have been "in the job" for years, as a result they hold no formal qualifications in safety - no Diplomas, no NEBOSH - yet are MIOSH and RSP's. It comes down to the fact that experience can be an alternative to qualifications. I believe that I do a good job. I also believe that I have a good standing in my field - which is office safety. I consider myself an Office Safety Specialist - I have 2 recent awards from the most senior member of my company (one of the largest Pharmaceutical companies in the world) for the work I have done in making the lives of my staff and my peers safer. Not bad for a "God-forbid" simple Associate member of IIRSM :D Chris A

Posted By Jim Walker Is it true that there are MIOSH RSPs, with no formal qualifications? I thought these had died off, so to speak.

Posted By Dave Wilson Hi Chris, Firstly well done for what you are achieving and I really do wish you well for your future in this profession. You have obviously realised that AIIRSM is not very good as you have attained further qualifications and are in the midst of another. If I remember rightly this posting was in reference to 'Professional H&S Consultants' who only had AIIRSM and this is not acceptable. Mr Tye must be plucking his harp with glee to see this still going on after all these years.

Posted By Hilary Charlton Chris We were all there once - people tend to forget that everyone started at the bottom and worked their way up and that it is a long process. The learning does not stop either, we continue to learn long after we have finished exams and courses, every day there is some new challenge and obstacle for which we have to go back to the drawing board and ask the question. This is why the forum is such a useful tool, because no one knows everything, but each person has their own particular specialism and you can generally find the solution to your problem from someone who has been there. As long as you have commitment, enthusiasm and the drive and determination, then don't be put down by anyone else's views and opinions - you know how good you are at what you do, your own faith in your ability should be enough. Hilary

Posted By Robert K Lewis The real problem here is often the mistaken belief that MIOSH equals professional competence - It does not. The Register is this measure. We often forget that there are corporate members who were admitted to corporate membership on the basis of a basic safety training, sometimes only NEBOSH cert., and a first degree which Admissions Committee accept as relevant. These degrees can range from ergonomics, through psychology to say material sciences. Such people have then to undergo further processes to be admitted to the Register but many employers do not understand these nuances and have placed such people in senior policy posts. Bob

Posted By CJ Alot of you are'nt going to like this but in my experience more than a few Health and Safety 'Professionals' use MIOSH as something to hide behind. It is definately not a mark of competance. As a rule I don't display the letters after my name and I don't pay subscription fees to any organisations. I find my CV and references shows my competance. As well as this there are degrees around that, are'nt accredited by IOSH but, are superior in content and better at preparing the prospective Health and Safety Advisor for their future role than the Nebosh Diplomas.

Posted By CJ These are... Degree courses designed by former Nebosh Diploma lectures to put the students at an advantage over a great deal of Safety Advisors in the modern working environment. This page is not for advertising one method of gaining qualifications over another so I won't display details. Then again I might later on in the thread to spice things up a bit if needed.

Posted By Dave Wilson Oh! go on!! I am really interested to get this advantage you talk about a the world will then be my oyster!

Posted By Peter Lee Oh no, some one actually came out and said it, I see Lord Voldemort rose up to take the bait again. Well done CJ !

Posted By Chris Abbott Ooops... Damn! You can edit a post when you've mucked it up! Sorry Dave, meant Level-3 NVQ (QCA Accredited or whatever) - It's a Diploma in Health & Safety Management; but when I enquired of IOSH if it would grant me a membership I could use they offered me Affiliate Level - which was nice... Apparently although it is a Level-3 NVQ in Health & Safety, IOSH don't recognise it as an equivalent to anything they need for membership... Pity.... If I'd know that the equivalent for a NEBOSH Diploma 1 was a Level-3 NVQ (Provided it's one we recognise) I might have opted to do the one that was more widely know..... :p

Posted By peter gotch Chris Why don't you change direction and go for the Level 4 NVQ, which is considered the equivalent to NEBOSH Diploma Part 2 and provides the academic part of the requirements for MIOSH status. Various of our staff have considered whether to do Level 3 first and then convert their portfolios to Level 4. In practice they have all elected to avoid the future annoyance of converting their portfolios and have gone straight to Level 4, with ongoing and continuing success over various timescales. The downside is that you need to find an environment in which you can look at a range of complex risks. (This is of course really an upside with the prospect of job satisfaction arising from diversity) Good luck. Oh, and I am also fascinated about these super degrees that IOSH doesn't recognise. Oh, and I don't have (and don't want) all the letters on my business card, but my employer does pay my subs, and FIOSH RSP etc etc are seen as being critical on my busines CV, just as eg Chartered Engineer is seen as critical for the CVs of others within our company. Its a matter of demonstrating a competent staff resource to our clients. Regards, Peter

Posted By Nick Higginson Chris No offence meant to yourself, I am all for new blood (I am relatively recent to all this myself). I was just a little irritated by the ridiculous statement about non-accredited IOSH degree courses. If they are as good as CJ states, surely they would be accredited? Is this more conspiracy theory nonsense? NEBOSH and IOSH joining forces to take over the world perhaps? You cannot be a Health & Safety Professional and have no affiliation with IOSH. Whatever the qualifications and references on your CV maybe, if there is no reference to IOSH, there is a fair chance it will go in the bin. Keep up the good work Chris, and feel free to contact me directly if I can help in any way. Kind regards Nick

Posted By Hilary Charlton Anyway, back to the question ... I was aware that the NVQ3 was not recognised for membership at IOSH, however, the various branches used to have a "conversion course" whereby you could change your NVQ3 into a TechSP by production of an evidence portfolio which is judged both at local level and at IOSH - it may be worth looking into this and see if it is still available. When I did this it was only £30 which is nothing really - not worth not doing if it's still available. Hilary

Posted By peter gotch Chris Up till the end of 2002 you could attain TechSP status via VQ3. However, the VQ has been reformatted, such that IOSH do not accept the new version as the academic requirement for TechSP. IOSH Membership can provide you with an information sheet showing various possible routes to membership, though I am not sure that its update to take account of the change in VQ3 status has been finalised. Regards, Peter

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith When I first started climbing the OH&S career ladder, the first rung I stepped on was communicating directly with IOSH in order to obtain accurate information in order to plan my career strategy. IOSH does have a careers guidance service for its members which can be found on http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...bership.careers_guidance and there are information packs which can be sent out to non-members. I suspect the statement about non-accredited IOSH degree courses is a bit of a red herring. I cannot possible see how any university in the UK could afford to even take that risk. If there are universities doing non-accredited OH&S degree courses, I am interested in knowing who these are?

Posted By Eric Burt .......... and for those interested in the Chartered/non chartered debate, you will be interested to know that the CIPD has now granted Chartered status to all of it's 37000 members. (I've posted this on the Members forum as well) Eric

Posted By Nick Higginson Geoff Burt - Where are you? Everytime Doctors are mentioned, you hit the roof, yet we now have analogies to Widget makers and ancient egyptians but you say nothing! We are not talking about other professions, we are talking about health and safety. Our profession does have a recognised body (and a chartered one at that). As you have rightly pointed out Keith, goodness knows how many egyptians died while building the pyramids, but they are viewed their workforce as totally expendable. Are you suggesting we should do the same? Or was it just a bad analogy? Years and years of doing something does not (necessarily) make you good at it! I repeat, Competence = Qualifications AND Experience. Regards Nick

Posted By Hilary Charlton Here we all are back on the old merry-go-round again. Chris - get your NVQ3 and try to find a job in a higher risk environment later on in order to do an NVQ4 or the NEBOSH Diploma - either of these, plus the experience, will now give you membership of IOSH. There are some who entered IOSH through different methods, but experience + experience does not fit the criteria of the Management Regs which is training + experience. Anyone, however, who started before the Management Regs did not, necessarily have to meet this criteria which is where these arguments come in. What may have been acceptable 20 years ago is no longer the case - look at how H&S legislation has moved on since 1983 and this should answer the question quite succinctly. I am not knocking any 'old school' who suggest that experience + experience is OK, probably, at the time it was, but the world has moved on and the requirements for H&S practitioners has moved on with it. If everything stayed still our kids would have been sweeping chimneys and down the mines - is this what should happen? The requirement for a health and safety practitioner or "competent" person today is training and experience or knowledge and other qualities - but how do you benchmark the knowledge? We are back to qualifications again! I have to add at this point that I, too, am intrigued by these exams which are better in health and safety but not recognised by IOSH - hello have I missed something ... Chris, persevere, keep gaining the knowledge, spread your wings to gain experience in a higher risk industry and keep climbing the ladder - sometimes it seems insurmountable but you will get there in the end. Hilary

Posted By Jay Joshi The syllabus of the The Royal Society for the Promotion of Health Level 3 Advanced Diploma in Health and Safety in the Workplace can be accessed at:- http://www.rsph.org/qual...lifications/Dip%20HS.pdf Its description is:- The syllabus explores all the areas about which supervisors are required to have working knowledge to ensure compliance with Health and Safety legislation. Supervisors should feel able, on the completion of the qualification, to design, implement and monitor a health and safety programme within a small to medium sized organisation having moderate risks. It is possible that this particular qualification is at "level 3" but whetherit is NVQ level 3 in Occupational Health and Safety for the revised standards or even the old NVQ level 3 on occupational health and safety that was a practitioner level qualification can only be decided after mapping the syllabus with the standards. Another consideration is whether RSPH has approached IOSH for accreditation of this qualification or not. RSPH also provides memebership to individuals. RSPH may be targeting the market for health and safety training in the catering health and safety sectors where its food hygiene courses are "respected" & "recognised"

Posted By Hazel Harvey This thread has developed some interesting views. The facts are Chris is that the RSPH Diploma is a QCA recognised course in a similar way to the NEBOSH Certificate. Under the revision of the national standards, mentioned by Peter, the new level 3 OSH standards are no longer 'Practice' standards like their predecessors. They have become standards for those with a need to have a knowledge of health and safety within their normal employment function, typically managers, supervisors or safety representatives. For people who wish to become advisors, professionals, practitioners etc. in health and safety the minimum standards now required are the Level 4 in Health and Safety Practice as reflected by qualifications such as NEBOSH Diploma or the NVQ level 4 qualification. The university courses accredited by IOSH are at a minimum this standard and usually considerably higher but do not use the QCA framework as they are governed by another quality control body the QAA. A list of these accredited qualifications appears on this web-site.There are some university degrees that are not accredited by IOSH either because they don't meet our requirements and have been refused accreditation or maybe because the university in question hasn't applied.CJ, I am aware of most of these but would be interested to have the names so that I can follow up any I don't know. Chris to go back to your original posting you are probably now undertaking a course that has less content than the Certificate. I have looked at the syllabus and it does not meet IOSH requirements irrespective of its QCA status. The QCA accreditation level is not consistent and so IOSH also uses its own accreditation processes before it will recognise qualifications for membership categories. You would be advised to look at the level 4 type courses if you want to progress your health and safety knowledge Contact me directly if you need any assistance in identifying these. Hazel Harvey Head of Professional Affairs