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Posted By Dave Wilson
I have just recieved a promotional leaflet saying "the law requires written risk assessments to be conducted and reviewed annually....£400 a day" is this scaremongering to get business?
"Statutory Fire training (Required by law)" 2 hour course £195.
have to admit though that you get one of their personal certificates and course notes!!!!!!
Any comments or thoughts?
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Posted By Kevin West
My first thought is we need to revise our prices!!!
On a serious note, this type of marketing is common in our industry and is targeted to the less informed managers in industry.
We try to inform companies of best practice and remind them of any legal responsibilities they may have and how we can assist them in improving their workplace.
Our sales force aim to be informative rather than go for the hard sell.
I think many managers will see through the scare mongering tactic and research the information rather than have a knee-jerk reaction and invite the company in (perhaps to fleece them?)
Kev
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Posted By Peter Lee
Dave,
Risk assessments are a live document and guidance suggests reviewing them annually, in any case they should be reviewed following an accident or with the introduction of new equipment etc.
There are some people out there scaremongering businesses like cold calling and selling Health and safety Law Posters for £30 "because the enforcing authoities will prosecute you if you dont have one."
Yo were right to highlight this scam as there may be people out there who could be fleeced.
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Posted By Gavin Barr
I think that it is designed to do just that, make managers who are probably not all that informed, scared and so get the company check book out.
I review our risk assessments every 12 months or for high risk assessments every 6-8 months. Low risk assessments are reviewed every 18-24 months. Also after accidents or process changes.
For £400 a day I think I will start my own company. Ha ha
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Thanks for the response guys but i have a REAL bug bear about consultants in General (NOT just H&S but all), Anyone can set themselves up as a consultant in H&S and therefore give advice to industry, that said the majority are very good and do give best practice advice. If we in this profession dont get away from the Law and regs, scaremongering tactics which we all do to a certain extent, as 'employed' H&S people, we are in essence retained 'Internal' consultants.
How many tell you how to run your business from a safety management point of view rather than £500 a day to do an audit or look at your 'H&S Policy' and then spout forward a report saying ' you do not comply with law XYZ etc.
Devise strategy to move the business forward and give cost effective soultions to percieved problems is what it should be about.
I know a guy who was a CPO Chef in the RN who is now a SENIOR H&S Consultant with a very respectable firm and all they do is regurgitate the HASAW Act as a H&S policy, how can a consultant do a good job and do all this funky stuff after spending 8 hours on site?
Probably upset someone here but should not tar you all with the same brush as thats not fair! (May need a job someday!! so never burn the bridges!)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Gavin trust me matey people out ther are getting that and more, and disbursements on top of that. (go on prove me wrong?)
It's life mate you charge what you think you can get away with without losing the business/client and thats not safety that's marketing.
Its not really about Risk assessments but the tactics which companies will go to get business.
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Posted By Gavin Barr
Dave, your right, I have only been doing this now for nearly 3 years but I have seen the types of things that consultants say just to get business. They try and baffle you with business speel and not what the requirments of the law are. I suspect that many an unwary manager has fallen foul to such speel. I have heard off a friend of mine about a company who paid for countless risk assessments to be done which were suitable and sufficient but the consultants who did them offered no further advise on how to reduce the risks or eliminate them totally. They did the assessments, pocketed the money and walked away leaving the person in charge with a nice big file of risk assessments and no clue with what to do with them.
So I agree, it is only money, money, money.
Oh by the Way I can't prove you wrong.
Thanks
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Posted By Gavin Gibson
Defining the frequency of reviewing risk assessments is simple - merely risk assess your process and define your high, medium and low risks. The 6, 12 and 18 months bands are realistic, although don't forget that you need to review them following incidents / accidents or significant changes to your operation.
On a broader, consultant bashing note, you can pay a lot of money for a document that is merely the last company's manual with your company logo added. If the consultant is really good they will tell you that the answers to all your problems identified in stage 1 will become clear on payment of fees for stage 2!!
Despite this, consultants do have a place, particularly when you are buying specific and in-depth knowledge or techniques bout an issue, eg occy health monitoring of a particular product. The mistake that is made is to bring them in on a general "help me to solve all my problems" basis.
But I am not bitter and twisted - I am far worse than that!
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Posted By Neil Cooper
As this has become a quasi-consultant bashing string I would like to add the following:
1. You pay for what you get
2. Like has been said, anybody can set up as a consultant, but if all the consultant does is complete a folder of risk assessments and not help to implement the controls, this won't pay the mortgage for very long.
3. Check how long the consultant has been in business, if they are any good they will have been successful for a long period of time.
4. Helping to set up a safety management system is complicated and it cannot be done alone by a consultant, but this is an ideal project for a consultant to help you with. Check out consultants with an MBA - there are some around.
5. Contact ISCA - Independent Safety Consultants Association - all of these consultants are long in the tooth.
6. Neil Cooper (MBA) - And in business as a consultant since 1987 - That is marketing!
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Posted By Neil Pearson
Amen to what Neil said. Also, why not ask to see examples of consultants' work. I show people what sort of thing they will get. Sometimes I can see that policies and management systems needed for one customer will be similar to some I've done before. In this case I say so and charge only for the work actually needed to tailor the documents.
I have developed a way of dealing with customers that means they have very little commitment, and if they don't like what I'm doing they can tell me to take a hike with no warning. Of course this has never happened: why should I try to trap customers with retainers if I do what people want and do a good job?
It is easy to call yourself a consultant, and it's not too hard to find new customers to fleece if you're that way inclined. My only answer is to check out the consultant, and ask for examples of the work.
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Dave
Just be glad you're not a girlie - it's bad enough them trying to fleece you without being totally patronising about it as well! It seems the natural assumption that because I am a girlie in mechanical engineering, a very male orientated environment, then I must be a puppet figure with someone else pulling the strings. Initially it was annoying but now it comes over quite amusing. This is a good reason for having your professional letters after your name on your business card - I tend to let them rattle on for a while and then present my business card and the whole conversation then does a magical shift to a more respectful tone - by which time it's too late obviously.
As for risk assessments, we tend to carry these out every three years or when a process or procedure changes, additionally, we do on the job assessments, monthly inspections and weekly checks and have a very open and honest policy where anyone can request a risk assessment to be carried out. As for fire training - yes we do it but not as frequently as that. No point in doing fire training at the moment until they get their act together on the new Regulations as it will all change again soon anyway.
Hilary
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