Posted By Des Daly We are currently carrying out scaffolding works at a well known drinks factory. I was called last friday by our site manager complaining that asbestos was being removed and our materials was being contaminated. I e-mailed the Principal Contractor and asked for information on the type of asbestos being removed etc. I attended site on Monday a.m. and was taken to the removal area. I saw 2 blokes smashing asbestos cement sheeting with hammers and placing the broken bits in an open skip. I called them over and asked if the material contained asbestos and if it did what type was it - they replied chrysotile. I commented on their lack of PPE and RPE and they said that they had masks and overalls and were not wearing them. I asked what was the % of chrysotile was and they said 'low'. I asked if the risk assessment was available and any analytical report - they said that it was in the site office. Before getting to the site office one of the asbestos removers came to me and said that his boss wanted to speak to me. I took the offered mobile phone and the person on the other end identified himeself as the contracts manager and asked what right did I have to ask his men any questions. I told him my concerns, he then questioned my knowledge, qualifications etc and told me in no uncertain terms not to talk to his men again ( nice chap!). At the site office I asked the site manager what type/content of asbestos was being removed. He asked me what right/qualifications I had etc.. ( another nice chap). I said I was concerned about possible exposure of employees to asbestos, he began to bite his finger nails, breath heavy and appeared not to be completely disinterested. I again asked for information on the work and there was no response so I left the office. Next port of call ( stick with me it gets worse) was the drinks factory safety officer. He was out and someone from engineering came along. I told him my concerns. He said that they were genuine concerns and he would investigate them. I left site, arrived back at the office and was immediately called into a meeting with our Contracts Director. He said that the site manager and his manager ( Principal Contractor) had called and were miffed ( his words) that I had gone to their client ( soft drinks company). I explained why I had. They reminded our Contracts Director that there was further phases of work on the drinks factory and asked if we wanted to work with them.This they said was not a threat but a comment. They said that the e-mail I had sent on the Friday had not been seen and therefore could not be answered. I was asked, later on that day, to fax my queries direct to site. The site responded and faxed through a method statement for the work highlighting a number of control measures ( none of which I saw being used) and a certificate of analysis for Asbestos Insulation Board (AIB) NOT asbestos cement sheeting. The analysis stated that the AIB contained Amosite. I pointed out the discrepancy to our Contract Director - he called the Site and they informed him that they had sent the wrong analytical report through. This morning I came into the office and found a faxed CERTIFICATE OF ANALYSIS for roof panels that states that they contain Chrysotile in signifcant quantity.The date on the report was 4th November i.e. after work had been commenced and after my site visit. I called the analytical company and checked the date when the sample was collected and analysed - they confirmed that it was yesterday (4th November). So it seems that the reaction to my visit to site resulted from the asbestos removal company and the principle contractor being caught out. I do not know the amount of asbestos our employees and myself have been exposed to. I slept little last night as the argument between not upsetting a client ( financial concerns), informing our employees of their exposure to asbestos ( legal and moral) and ensuring that should I die from an asbestos related disease that I have at least one record of where I know I was definitely exposed raged( personal). I have explained my personal feelings/fear/anxiety to our Director this morning - he has called a site meeting with the Principal Contractor for tomorrow. In my experience of such meeting I will have one hell of a job defending my actions ( both bosses sitting with short sighted commercial heads on). I feel so strong about this that my whole career hinges on the outcome What should/can I do now?

Posted By Paul Leadbetter Des All you can do is point out the apparent illegality of what you saw and the consequences for both companies if their respective insurers and the HSE find out. You might want to brush up on S44 of the Employment Rights Act 1996, as well. Paul

Posted By Chris Turner Des, On checking your website, I cannot help but notice an adverisement reminding the need to comply with the CAW Regs 2002! Whilst I understand your concerns, your actions are most valid, if you are not backed by your emoployer, then.......draw your own conclusions. You are there to advise and guide on issues of health and safety, that is to protect the people and interests of all parties, which was what you were doing. It can be likened to taking part or know of a crime that has or is going to be committed. Be strong and stick to your beliefs, you know, as do most others, know that you are right!

Posted By Jim Walker Des, There have been several prison sentences handed out recently to "asbestos cowboys". Find details of these for your meeting. Go into the meeting and tell all concerned, client, principal, your boss how lucky they are to have you helping them avoid a unplanned holiday.

Posted By Hilary Charlton I have read your thread with disgust. The fact that you are challenged is bad enough but then to ask you what business is of yours is downright rude, even if you were not H&S, the incorrect removal of asbestos should be of equal concern to a layman as well as to an H&S professional. However, people normally only turn and confront when they know they are in the wrong - they are using this rudeness as a defensive barrier. Suggest you go to your meeting armed with legal cases, the Control of Asbestos regs and some newspaper articles or articles from insurance companies which outline how much the total bill for asbestosis and mesothelioma is going to run to (in billions of course) when for the sake of a few hundred quid they could do it properly. Then you can see what the response is. Recommend you request that the meeting is minuted so you have a formal record of your objections and recommendations. Good luck with the meeting. Hilary

Posted By Graham Sargeant Like many others who have replied to this thread I can do little but offer my support to you in this case. My longer term aim is to work full time in the world of safety, its not that I saw it as a career move but really its simply because every week I come across a situation where h&s is compromised or a blind eye is turned because of financial considerations mainly attached to an employer not wishing to upset the apple cart or lose further potential business. I find this a very frustrating situation, as my only power is recording the incidents and persuasion. The lip service approach that some construction companies have is unacceptable in the 21st century, and its no wonder with attitudes like this construction is such a dangerous business, so I think to some extent it serves the companies right the insurance premiums are through the roof...I hope the efforts of yourself and others with concerns about safety (not just those who hold acedemic qualification) make a difference in the long run! Good luck.

Posted By Des Daly Now back from the meeting. The Principal Contractor was accompanied by his safety adviser and Contracts Manager and the Asbestos removal contractor. The meeting started with a total character assassination of me. Apparently I was 'just walking onto site without induction ( not true), I was not signing in ( not true), I was interviewing their men etc etc... They then went on to say that I was talking down to them and kicking open office doors and grilling their site manager ( all lies). It was a veritable torrent of false accusations (designed to divert attention away from the real issue i.e. Asbestos being removed unsafe). To be frank - they did succeed. I sat their listening to this rubbish and wondered how I could stop it all. My Director eventually stopped them and tried to bring the issue back to Asbestos - the removal contractor stated that he had been in the 'game for 20 years' and that there was no risk to anyone from the work. I told him that I saw his men breaking up sheets with hammers without PPE and RPE - he flatly denied this and asked if I had photgraphic evidence as, I quote, 'The HSE will only accept photgraphic evidence in prosecutions'. I had photographs of the material lying about broken but did not show him. I then questioned his post commencement of work analysis of the asbestos ( carried out after my initial concerns were raised) He once again said that he had been in the industry 20 years etc etc. blah blah and did not need analysis to know what type of asbestos was in the sheeting. I mentioned the CAWR and the need to carry out analysis and risk assessment before work commences. He said that the risk was minimal and that his men were working safely. The Safety adviser for the PC did not help me at all. He actually said that they will ban me from site if they want to. Meanwhile the PC and his site manager said that as we ( myself and site manager) don't get what is going to happen. I said that I have no problem with him. But the meeting then turned again to a personal attack on me and I must admit to feeling anxious, very much alone and intimidated. I tried to bring the meeting back around to the point and the PC's safety adviser said that they all know that I know legislation but what were we going to do about it. He asked us to forward details of all of our men who may have been exposed and that they would be kept ( by them) as a record in case in 20 years times they may develop asbestos related illness ( he was sneering at me whilst saying this). I then said that exposure to asbestos is reportable under RIDDOR ( thanks whoever gave this piece of info) and I would be reporting a dangerous occurrence for all of our employees who may have worked in that area. I asked if I could record this in the site accident book and there was a collective howl of protest even the asbestos contractor butted in saying that it was not an accident and cannot be recorded - did they have a valid point?. How did it all end? It was agreed between our Director and the PC that in future I would have to report to the site office and be accompanied by the site manager - his deputy most probably as the site manager does not like me ( can you believe this crap!). And report any concerns to (i) Our site manager (ii) Our Director WHO WOULD THEN DECIDE WHAT ACTION TO TAKE. It was the final insult - the betrayal I had feared and expected. Still shaking with the shock of it I have yet to eat my lunch... not hungry stomach in a knot. Is this profession that I have chosen really valued. A bad day for health and safety and an even worse day for me. Thanks once again for all the support and advice - I'll get over today and I am sure that next week I'll be 'tilting my lance at another windmill'.

Posted By Greg Davies Des, the scenario you've outlined draws a close comparison with another recent incident I am aware of. Go to:- www.hse-databases.co.uk/prosecutions follow the pathway and put in Moto Hospitality Ltd and ref F120000369 at the prompts. Also look at the related cases.You will see what I mean. Perhaps passing a copy of ALL the prosecutions and fines to your site manager and director would not go a miss!! Under the Control of Asbestos at Work (CAW) Regulations 2002, if it was not known, but possible, that asbestos was present then as a minimum, regulations 6 and 10 of the CAW would apply as well as a whole host of other regs ( CDM, MHSW, W(HSW) etc). Considering it was amosite (brown), asbestos insulation board (AIB) that was present,(which was banned after 1985), then any contactor, with even a small amount of knowledge, let alone "20 years experience" would/should have identified from the age of building alone that it was possible asbestos was present. If they knew asbestos was present for definite then all of the CAW is relevant. Either way, what you've identified shows a number of breaches of the regulations. The principal contractor, asbestos removal contractor and potentially the Client (whoever is responsible for the building) would all be liable. The HSE, should they find out about this, would have a field day and rightly so too in my opinion. You have done the right thing in identifying this and voicing your concerns to the relevant people. It is though very disappointing you've had so little support especially from your own company.

Posted By Hilary Charlton Hi Des Good on you for sticking to your guns. As I said earlier, their bluff is a defensive move as they will never admit they were in the wrong as it will lead to a lot of claims in the future, however, I'll bet the procedures change a little in future! As for the character assassination - just be glad you're not a girlie as well is all I can say! Well done anyway. Hilary PS Treat yourself to a cream cake - you obviously deserve it.

Posted By david cairns dont forget!! the HSE read the posts aswell. if i was the contractor, i would be expecting a knock on the door soon. well done mate, you stood your ground.

Posted By Robert Paterson Hi Des Your stance on this issue has to be supported. It is clear that many breaches of the Regulations have occurred and going by the response on your thread some of the breaches could have serious consequences in the future. Companies like the one you mention in your thread should be either made to comply with the legislation or put out of business immediately to prevent further suffering of innocent people. Whistleblowing in this instance should be encouraged and supported. Suggestions like the ones mentioned on this thread should be acted upon i.e,bringing to the attention of your superiors the consequences of not complying with the legislation. It is through ignorance by authorities and contractors in past years that we find ourselves in a situation where we need to change legislation in order to extract asbestos safely without harm to the public and workmen. I do hope that the HSE are reading these concerns raised and if not then the Institute should bring it to their attention as soon as possible and help bring the practice of illegally removing asbestos to an end. It was the right and proper thing to highlight this major issue and make people sit up and become aware that some people put Health and Safety at the top of the agenda when it comes down to it. The sooner we get 'corporate accountability' on the legisation register the better it will be. Directors need to be made accountable for serious breaches of the law. Good Luck in the future and I hope the guilty party are rewarded with heavy penalties by the HSE Kind Regards Robert Paterson

Posted By Tom Waddell Des, Re the RIDDOR question, it is not only accidents that require to be reported, Paragraph 21 of Schedule 2 (Dangerous Occurrences)relates to "Escape of substances" in a sufficient quantity to cause the death........or any other damage to the health of any person. Paragraph 149(a) of the Guidance specifically mentions asbestos, and from what you are saying, the potential release would be more than enough to cause potential damage to health. I have come across a few contractors working like this in the past and I have found it is always better to stand your ground, as if you back down on this, they know they can force you to back down in future. You need to speak to your director and point out that you should be considering whether you really wish to continue to work for a company that pays such little regard for its workforce, or others working in the general area. As a company, you will have to clean down all your scaffolding to ensure you are not transferring the asbestos residue either to another site, or back to your own depot, either way, you, as a company are putting your own personnel at risk and may risk prosecution for handling the contaminated scaffold if your staff are not suitably protected. This could end up costing your company a lot of money, is this contract really worth the hastle, ask your director. Anyway, keep the faith, you are in the right and it sounds like everyone involved knows it, but do not wish to admit to being caught out. STICK TO YOUR GUNS.

Posted By Charles Robinson Des I sugest you look at the following case on WWW.bailii.co.uk as small extract follows. ROLLCO SCREW and RIVET CO LTD BERNARD ROSE PHILIP ROSE, R v. [1999] EWCA Crim 871 (26th March, 1999) No. 98/6278/W4 98/6536/W4 & 98/6537/W4 IN THE COURT OF APPEAL CRIMINAL DIVISION Birmingham Crown Court Queen Elizabeth II Law Courts Newton Street Birmingham B4 7NA Friday 26 March 1999 B e f o r e: THE LORD CHIEF JUSTICE OF ENGLAND AND WALES (Lord Bingham of Cornhill ) MR JUSTICE JOWITT and MR JUSTICE ASTILL The prosecution arose out of an extremely serious incident of asbestos contamination in the Birmingham area in late September 1997. The company employed some 12 or more employees in the manufacture of screws and rivets. The roof of the factory in which the company's operation was housed was in poor condition and Mr Bernard Rose was anxious that it should be repaired before the company became the responsibility of his son. Both father and son were aware that the roof was asbestos and they had looked into the question of removing it. The two co-accused already mentioned, Mr McNeill and Mr Joyce, trading as M & M Joyce, were contacted by the company and in September 1997 contracted to remove brown asbestos from the factory roof. Brown asbestos is the most dangerous of all kinds of asbestos and requires the greatest care in handling. Mr Evans was a specialist asbestos worker. On this occasion he acted as an independent contractor and contracted with Mr McNeill and Mr Joyce to remove the asbestos for the modest sum of £5,000, for which work he was in due course paid £4,000 in cash. Neither Mr McNeill nor Mr Joyce nor Mr Evans possessed an asbestos licence. The evidence showed that at the end of September 1997 a vehicle hired by Mr Evans was seen unloading bags of asbestos at a number of unauthorised sites. It was inquiries prompted by these deposits which eventually led to the company and the two personal defendants. When the matter was investigated, it turned out that the stripping of the asbestos at the company's premises had been done with inadequate equipment and with a marked absence of precautions such as air locks, effective masks and protective clothing, with the result that asbestos was disseminated over the factory premises

Posted By Jay Joshi I presume that it was not the actual removal of the asbestos sheeting, but the breaking up of the sheets without any control measures whatsoever trhat is the crux of the problem. However, any contractor dealing with asbestos in this fashion is unlikely to use robust controls measures during removal! Ideally, the skips should be large enough to accomadate the sheets, but that is not always the case. I have had to deal with a similar problem myself, having to accomadate asbestos sheets in a fixed sized skip--but we never broke the sheets without any control measures--the sheets were wetted with PVA solution, wrapped in polyethylene sheets, operators wore full ppe--coveralls & RPE and gently broke them into 2 pieces only so as to fit in the skip--not using hammers.

Posted By Michael Daly Des, Looks like you've been ambushed for trying to do your job which most of the parties to this incident didn't expect you to follow through. I think a number of people have a potential problem following your complaint; 1. Your Director may find he will not be protected by the limited liability status of your company in any follow-on legal cases and could be banned from being a director by the DTI. Your Director also has a resonsibility to report the incident to his fellow directors. The same holds true for the other companies involved. 2. Your fellow employees have now been exposed to asbestos fibres, this may still be happening, and may become exposed to more when your company removes its equipment from the site. (By the way please ensure your equipment is safe to move and re-deploy elsewhere before it is moved or else you will have a legal liability for any breaches of regulations). 3. Other contractors operating on the site and the client may also have been exposed to asbestos fibres. If the removal contractor has been operating in this fashion for the last twenty years how much more damage has he caused? What did he do with the amosite? Have you seen only a minor example of his work? 4. I wonder if the PC's safety advisor is a member of IOSH and reading this? If he, is he should be ashamed of himself - it would be nice to hear IOSH have removed his accreditation! The next step is largely up to you. You may decide to seek employment elsewhere with a company that appreciates prevention costs less than cure. You may decide to stick with your present job, refuse to be brow beaten by the contractors and make your area that little much better than it would have been without you. Whatever you decide I'm sure you will receive a lot of support from people on this forum, don't think you have to fight all the battles on your own (us Daly's have to stick together) Mike Daly

Posted By Tom Warner Des, I read with interest your predicament and I endorse the sentiments expressed by the other contributors. Having worked in the construction industry for over thirty years as a foot soldier and until recently a supervisor, I am now currently engaged in asbestos surveying and arranging asbestos removal works. I can assure you, the attitude of your employer and the contractors you had to deal with, is sadly the norm. I know you will take heart from the support you have received and offer my own testament by saying, that to survive in the asbestos industry you must be your own man, from my own experiences, to ignore a situation (an asbestos incident) like the one you have experienced, then one day it will come out in the wash. Best of luck for the future. Tom