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#1 Posted : 30 January 2004 18:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Jay
I have spent the last two months working in a FMCG Distribution Outlet that appears to be breaking more laws that it bothers to follow!
I'm not employed in any form of HSE advisor and when I mentioned some of the dangerous procedures I was told it had always been that way and it worked just fine!
I seriously reckon a training film could be made in this warehouse of all the very worst case scenarios possible under one roof.
I know they are breaking umpteen laws but what do I do?
(I have no vendetta against these people, I need a job just like everyone else!)
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#2 Posted : 30 January 2004 19:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jeff Manion
The “Public Interest Disclosure Act” (PIDA), since 1999 workers have had the right to bring to the public attention, safety failures. Knowing that they have legal protection under the PIDA.

A qualifying disclosure is found under Section 43 of the Act. This means the information reveals genuine concerns about crimes, civil offences that includes negligence, breach of contract, breach of administrative law, miscarriage of justice, dangers to health and safety or the environment and the cover up of these.

The PIDA sets out what a worker must demonstrate in order to be protected. The most readily available protection is where the worker who is concerned, raises the matter with the organisation or with the person responsible. This section emphasises the vital role of those, in law are accountable for the conduct. It does this by helping to ensure that they are made aware of the concerns, so it can be investigated.

A disclosure to the employer — whether it director or manager - will be protected if the whistleblower has an honest and reasonable suspicion that the occurrence has taken place, is occurring or is likely to occur.

Where a third party is involved or responsible the same test will apply, this same test applies to disclosure made to them.

A worker can seek legal advice and be protected for doing so. This is the only disclosure under PIDA that does not require the employee to have made the disclosure in good faith.

PIDA applies across the public, private and voluntary sectors and protects workers who raise genuine concerns about malpractices from being victims or dismissed by their employer, in accordance with the Act’s provisions. In addition to employees, PIDA can apply to workers, contractors, trainees, agency staff, home workers. It does not presently cover the genuinely self-employed, volunteers, the intelligence services, armed forces or police officers.

If a worker has a genuine suspicion of malpractice, including a risk to any person, they can raise it with their employer and be protected, It can also be raised direct with the HSE who are one of 35 regulators prescribed under PIDA. These regulators occupy a special position under PIDA as workers are not required to have raised their concerns internally first.

POLICIES.

The primary aim of a whistle blowing policy is to encourage employees to feel confident that there is a safe alternative to silence. It is not meant to replace any other procedures in place.

When addressing the issue of whistle blowers in the workplace the key points for employers to remember are:-

That it is in their own interest to introduce effective whistle blowing policies. It will help both parties separate the message from the messenger and will also reduce the likelihood that a public disclosure will be protected under the Act,

That where the whistle is blown, all reasonable steps are taken to ensure that no colleague or manager victimise the whistleblower.

That they should make it clear to their employees that reporting concerns to the prescribed regulator—the Health and Safety Executive under safety legislation, is acceptable.

To review the terms and conditions with contractors, to ensure that those who work with key contractors also have access to the policy insofar as the concerns affects the work completed for the organisation.

It may be advisable to review any relationship with the prescribed regulator and consider bringing it to the attention of the prescribed regulator.

Jeff Manion.
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#3 Posted : 30 January 2004 19:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Been there, done that.
Simple answer: Get another job.
Report to the HSE ?
As if !
In many cases the fine for non-compliance is so desultory that it costs less for the employer to get caught than to buy equipment and modify procedures.
That is always supposing that there is an inspection, in many cases there isn't.
As for the pida...yeah...some of you guys ought to get out more.
Protected from victimisation ?
Not in this world. if they know who "ratted" they'll put you on cleaning the loos for a month....stop overtime "no work for you, times are hard"....then some of the other guys will lean on you...in the not-nicest possible way...you'll get picked-on and guess who gets the blame ?
Maybe you'll have a fight...."sorry, we can't have fighting here...you'll have to go"
Been there, done that.
AND it'll make NO difference at all.
A bad place is for life, not just for christmas.
Bad managers make bad places.
Try making an anonymous (as in no name) complaint to the companies INSURANCE company instead....all these H&S guys mean well, but no bottle when the solid excreta hits the fan.
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#4 Posted : 30 January 2004 19:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Miller
Well said John! I too have been there & done that. Things were so bad afterwards I had to jump ship. The Safety officers and Union sat back and did nowt! In fact one safety officer had the decency to move on because he was so fed up with trying to change the culture. Protection Get real!!!!!

Mike
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#5 Posted : 30 January 2004 19:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jeff Manion
Have to agree with your comments.
What about the result from the "Hutton Enquiry", was the Doc a whislte blower?
JM
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#6 Posted : 30 January 2004 20:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Miller
Well said again!
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#7 Posted : 31 January 2004 00:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Ahh, the UNION..
Yep, still a member. Although I don't know why.
They're too interested in themselves to bother about the guys who pay their (not small) salaries.
Ask the H&S bloke to come from the union "sorry, Mikes away on a course..when he's back he's going on holiday"
We have a bloke at work who tore a tendon in his wrist when someone put a cable across his workplace and he fell over it (no, he couldn't see it because he was in full air-fed RPE)...no pay when off sick so he claimed from their insurance...and got it. The MD came down almost apoplectic with rage and literally SCREAMED at him that his overtime was stopped and he was on 8.00-16.30 and no more...and some of the other guys made life a bit hard for him.....they eventually HAD to rescind the victimisation after his solicitor claimed for that as well.
H&S at work ?
Get outa here.
They pay thousands for a H&S consultancy to provide a H&S policy for the company and whan you point-out problems you get told to either do what you're told or "[expletive deleted]-off and get a job somewhere else"
Fume extraction ? (workplace H&S regulations 1992)....."go and open a door" (temp: -3C)
H&S inspectors ?
Brown envelope merchants.
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#8 Posted : 01 February 2004 19:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler
I have been interested to read the replies posted.
Welcome to the world of health and safety, dammed if we do dammed if we dont.
I know the first reply was the best, but I think you should also concider setions 7&8 HASAWA 74.
There are a lot of good company's out there to work for, but in this instance, if you dont do something, and now, does that not make you any better than the bosses?
Sorry to be blunt.
Regards.
Jonathan Sandler
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#9 Posted : 01 February 2004 20:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
I came across a poem the other day which I feel is very apt for everyone involved in the workplace. The Poet is credited at the end of the poem.

" I Chose to Look the Other Way"
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn't that I didn't care,
I had the time and I was there.

But I didn't want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.
I new he'd done the job before,
If I called wrong, he might be sore.

The chances didn't seem that bad,
I've done the same, he new I had.
So I shook my head and walked on by,
He new the risks as well as I.

He took a chance, I closed my eyes,
and with that act I let him die.
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.

Now every time I see his wife,
I know I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear,
But it isn't something you need to share.

If you see a risk that others take,
That puts their health or life at stake,
The question asked or the thing to say,
Could help them live another day.

If you see a risk and walk away,
Then I hope you never have to say,
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.

Don Merrell
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#10 Posted : 01 February 2004 21:21:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Jay
Many thanks to all that have responded to my initial message.
I am truly torn between believing the cynics and the consequences of inaction!
I don’t need to exaggerate about the place were I currently work, I've never seen such a blatant disregard for personal safety that as the first responder stated does stem from the managers down.
I'm actively seeking alternative employment and certainly plan to spill all when the times right, I just have to hope it's not just after the accident that's waiting to happen!!!!!

Thanks to all.

John
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#11 Posted : 02 February 2004 09:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By Gareth Smith
Just hopefully, that accident that is waiting to happen doesnt ivlove you directly.
go you not hole a duty to your fellow workers by knowingly condoning an unsafe place of work.
if you were to be directly involved in an accident, would you have a legitimate claim towards the company for quantum recompense, i would protect myself, especially when you say you are looking for alternative employment, mail the HSE annon, and tell him your thoughts and concerns and i guess he will put in an appearance.....sooner rather than later
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#12 Posted : 02 February 2004 09:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kelvin George
John

Who did you mention your concerns to? Were they shopfloor personel or management/employers?

Because if it was just shopfloor then it is possible that the management/employer does not know - not all managers/employers are uncaring thoughtless money grabbing B******S (If you know of any please let me know) some are just unaware and others just plain incompetent. However it does make a difference.

Some people obviously have had bad experiences and suffered from bullying by the management and ineptitude of the HSE. Well I'm truly sorry guys, but before you vent your anger it might be constructive to answer the problem of the thread as against the problems of other companies - I too have lost a job I enjoyed and was good at directly because of a safety issue with the senior management and I was middle management at the time. Also being proved correct does not help in any shape way or form.

Cheers Kelvin
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#13 Posted : 02 February 2004 09:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter Lee
Just to clarify, if this workplace is retail distribution then Enforcement falls to the Local Environmental Health Department not HSE.
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#14 Posted : 02 February 2004 10:08:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Johnston
I have also been in a work situation much like the one you are in John. There was no guards on milling machines, drilling machines, no eye protection, no fume extraction for welding, diesel fork-lift trucks being used inside the workplace with no adequate ventilation, the list is endless.

I was not a health and safety person at that workplace, but I never gave up trying to make things better. We had a gas leak from the main water boiler which would build up overnight and nearly knock people out when they entered the building in the morning. I persisted in asking for this to be fixed, but as it was essential for the hot water urn for tea-time tea and coffee, it was never fixed.

I got to the stage of each time I went to work, I would smell gas and immediately ask my manager for a risk assessment form. I did this for 4 months every day, give-or-take a day or two. In the end, which is my point, the management had umpteen risk assessments from myself concerning this very dangerous gas leak. Incidentally, I kept a photocopy of all my assessments. I decided enough was enough and called the HSE, I felt so strongly about it I didn't care who thought what of me, peoples lives were at risk, including my own.

Anyway, the inspector arrived and went through the workplace like a tonne of bricks. He picked up on the pile of risk assessments for the gas leak and found a great number of poor working practices around the workplace. The manager in charge was also picked up on with his lack of competency for health and safety. He had to comply to taking the NEBOSH certificate, the fork-lift practices were totally revamped, new guards all over the place, extraction where it ought to be and the gas leak..........fixed within 3 days of the inspectors visit.

I was in no way popular anymore, but I was glad I "grassed em up". I have since moved on from that hazardous workplace, but I am still watching the enforcement action and deadlines for this company. It will be a long long time before their h & s is up to standard, but hopefully I have helped nudge certain people in the right direction to change things.

I have chosen a career in h & s because I know that with my passion for h & s, I CAN make a difference although an uphill struggle. One life saved through my work is enough, 10 lives saved through my work is a dream I will never give up on. More than that, and well..........

Anyway, sorry this is such a long essay, but whistleblowing is part of h & s whether we like it or not. Slowly but surely attitudes can change for the better.
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#15 Posted : 03 February 2004 01:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
The correct thing to do with the gas leak would have been to have called the gas emergency number.
Not the HSE, who cannot fix it anyway. Not being registered gas installers.
The uphill struggle starts with things like MSDS...to tell what fumes are given off by welding "they" (the laboratory testing samples) refers to the MSDS for the products and deduces what is given off. With paint, the manufacturers had a univ lab expose paint in a plasma , which totally oxidised it, and then effectively said that nothing harmful was released. With welding consumables it's the same.
The "result" bears no relation to reality, since paint is NOT totally oxidised in a welding arc.
Now, we also have an acid paste in the workshop. A mixture of nitric and hydrofluoric acid. Please look up the MSDS for those acids. There are no first aid measures in the workshop in case anyone gets contaminated.
It's NOT that they don't care. If there is an IMMEDIATE risk steps will be taken, but long-term damage is of no interest.
Oh, and since the con party have already said that H&S will have a lower profile (ie: the inspectors are to be halved) and "red tape" will be cut.
Looks like the H&S jobs market is going to be overwhelmed.
H&S geeks have done nothing for me. The insurance companies get things done in days, not months. Money talks, H&S whimpers.
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#16 Posted : 03 February 2004 10:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Abbott
I think I liked John Johnston's responce more...!

:)
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#17 Posted : 04 February 2004 12:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Simon Ayee
Talk to the H&S enforcing authority (local authority if wholesale or retail distribution or HSE)- they SHOULD deal with your concerns confidentially. They will be able to advise you if they think there is a problem with the conditions you describe and investigate if appropriate.

Where an employee could easily be identified due to the nature of the complaint they will probably not even tell the employer that there has been a complaint when they investigate.
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#18 Posted : 05 February 2004 01:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
From personal experience I can tell you that even a no-complaint "normal" inspection from the HSE leads to a lot of discussion about who "ratted".
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#19 Posted : 05 February 2004 17:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jez Corfield
Money might talk, but a major part of effective health and safety management, as you all know, is linking H&S performance to increased profitability and efficiency, and this is usually enough to convince the tightest of bosses to shift their point of view.

This 'key-turn' approach has worked well for me countless times. Of course there are other key-turns (like the law) that are only of benefit in certain situations, and with certain organisations.

Of course this outfit might not have anyone experienced enough on the payroll to point this out, which is of little use to our disgruntled employee. Best phone the insurers and start keeping a 'diary' to back up any employment tribunal.

Jez Corfield
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