Posted By Ken Taylor You mean that a doctor has said that an employees is unfit for work and a representative of the employer, knowing this, has said that they can work? Send the sick employee home and hope that they haven't had an accident or infected anyone in the mean time. This could be a failure of duty to provide for the health and safety of the employee or others who may be affected - in addition to the issue of paying someone who may be claiming benefit for being unfit.

Posted By Bev Your insurance will not pay up if this person has/causes an accident, including damaging plant/products/stopping production etc. If someone is signed off by a doctor but then wishes to return to work, they should first return to the doctor to check this is ok - the doctor may know something they don't, and often people have confidence in their abilities when perhaps they are not in a position to judge! This is the whole point of a doctor signing someone off!

Posted By Karen Todd I am not an expert in these matters, but these are my thoughts anyway. If a doctor writes a line for someone to refrain from work for 2 weeks, I think that is referred to as an "open" line. If the doctor writes a line for someone to refrain from work until, say, 3rd February, I think that is referred to as a "closed" line because it has an actual end date on it. I think this is why some companies insist on getting a return to work line (a closed line) because it has a date on it, because how do you know that someone with a line for 2 weeks doesn't have to go back and see the doctor in 2 weeks time to have their condition reassessed? Here is another one. What if someone's doctor signs them off work for a fortnight, they don't declare this, return to work a few days later and cover their absence with a self cert (because for the number of days they had off only a self cert is required, the doctor just happened to give them a med cert). Minefield. Regards, Karen

Posted By Charles Robinson Tech SP Found the following posted on the Workplace Law Network forum a contradiction to the comments made on this thread any opinions? Simon [unregistered] 0:31 13-Feb-2004 If a Dr gives you a certificate of sickness for, say, 4 days and you feel able to return to work after just 3, are there any implications to this decision? Could you return to work before the end of the certificate, or would you be ill advised to do so. CT [unregistered] 0:11 19-Feb-2004 Hi Simon Doctors certificates are simply for statutory sick pay purposes and contrary to popular belief nothing else!! Doctors do not have to issue sick cetrtificate but this over the years has become an accepted way for employers to manage their absence i.e. by wasting GP's time insisting that a sick certificates is gained. GP's do not have to issue these it is up to them. There is a big debate at the moment and it is likely that GP's will not issue them in future years to come. There was some articles in personnel today about 6 months ago about this topic. You may also recall in the news the difficulty in getting GPs to agree new contracts - issuing certificates was one of the sticking points. Besides, the average GP has little idea about the nature of employment in the average factory for example and is rarely in a position to know whether someone is fit for their job role or not. That decision is not the GP's responsibility - it is the role of the employer with personnel and Occupational Health advice where required to decide. Sickness absence management is a line management responsibility. Many people think that if someone returns prior to the stated time on their sick certificates then the enmplopyer is not insured - rubbish! The cert is for SSP only! The employer should have a robust policy in place and it is for the employer or line mananger to complete a 'return to work interview.' The idea is to confidentially discuss with the employee which aspects of their job role may aggravate their condidtion or injury. Rememeber they are the expert in their job and their problem. Are any adaptions required to enable the employee to continue to work but regain their fitness with the minimal of risk to the employee, the employer and to reduce the risks of teh employee bouncing off-sick again e.g reduced hours for the first week, are they able to wear personal proptective equipment, do they need to avoid certain movements or regularly rotate onto different lines. The manager is also allowed to ask for reasonable information from the employee about their condition or injury. Bear in mind many GP's write certificates simply because the person asks for one and what is written on the certificate may bear no relation to their problem only what the GP was told at the time. As the employer you need to ask the employee whether there is anything the employer can do to help and try to identify if work is a causative factor e.g. bullying & harressment, poor ergonomics If you have a robust self-certification system in place backed by good policy, it is followed, everyone is treated the same, the policy forms part of their terms & conditions, you train your line managers and gain expert advice from Occupational Health & personnel where required- you are unlikely to fall foul of a tribunal. Don't forget you have a contract with an employee - you will pay them in return for them fulfilling their job role - whether they are malingering (in which case it's fraud) or genuinely ill the process should be the same - you have to beleive them until proved otherwise. if you keep good records you will catch the malingerer out. If you have a good policy you should be spotting patterns to employees absence and be in a posiition to challenge them if they frequently take Mondays off or are always late etc. Suggested reading - Positive Attendance management by Dr Bill McCulloch Croner run a very good Fitness to Work Course - with excellent materials on writing policies and what you can and can't do as an employer! You can access OH advice via a number of independent providers or NHS plus (the nhs OH service does external work.) Shop around carefully and find out exactly what you are getting for your money. Many employers waste thousands asking for 'medical reports' from GP's that don't tell you what you want to know or you are not qualified to interpret. That is the role of OH. Besides you should not be interested in the condition - simply the effect that conidition or injury has on the ability of that employee to fulfill their job role! Sorry about the waffle - this is me on my soapbox!

Posted By Lesley Surely the doctor is the "competent person"?? to mkae such a diagnosis

Posted By Paul B Charles is absolutely correct. The issuing of a doctors certificate (a Med. 3 form) is for SSP purposes only and is only advisory in terms of an employees absence from work. This means that the employer is free to obtain further competent advice from an alternative source (such as an occupational health physician/provider) as to the employees fitness to work and if reasonable adjustments are required to facilitate a speedier return to work. Based upon this advice the management are then in a position to make an informed judgement regarding that employee. In the absence of alternative competent advice the employer should default to the advice of the GP in preference to making thier own decisions. It should be remembered that GPs, through thier training and ethics act as patient advocates and, in general, are not qualified/experienced specifically in how illness may impact upon the workplace and what options are available to return an employee to work earlier. Also, with an average consultation time of 7 minutes, they will invariably issue a Med 3 to a determined employee. OH physicians/providers are the experts in this field.

Posted By Steve Sedgwick There is a great deal of misinformed opinion on this issue from many people who have not really studied or done any (balanced) research on it. Thanks for the sanity that Charles, John and Paul brought into to this debate by sharing their informed opinion. Steve

Posted By John Murgatroyd Further to a previous posting: A qualified doctor I know has just been reading this topic. She would like me to inform you all that though she is now in general practice, she has "put-in" her 10 years as a hospital physician, as have have the majority of other gps'. She would recognise a work-based illness over that of many of you. She also would like it to be pointed out that if the person who is ill is on medication, then it's your own responsibility if that persons actions injure someone. Apparently, even antibiotics affect some people badly.

Posted By John Murgatroyd Here we are again. Perhaps all you health, safety and welfare "consultants" could "get your heads" around this. The V A S T majority of employees in this country work for small businesses. These do not, and probably would not, have the services of a full-time physician available to them. The best they would have is a local doctor in case of an emergency. At present the firm I work for has one employee being treated for a respiratory infection. His medication cautions against driving while taking it. He is given a lift to work where he drives forklifts during the day. Given that many small firms would rather cut off their heads than make any entry to the incident book, I fail to see how you can make rash statements about there not being many incidents caused by employee illness. One incident involving serious injury is one too many (at least to the injured party)

Posted By John Murgatroyd Why would anyone seek the consent of their doctor for anything ? Your doctor is your master ? You may be a fool to do something against medical advice, but this is a free society (sic) Many employers (mine) insist on a "sick note" if you're off work. In reality, the sick note can be signed by yourself for the first 4 days (?)... it is basically worthless. If an employer insists that a "sick" employee works, then: 1. He's a prat, and the employee should seek employment elsewhere. 2. It's on his own head if the employee needs further medical help if the condition is worsened by continuing to work. Refer to my previous comments on drugs. Refer to your employers H&S policy on drugs and/or alcohol, if they've got one. Prescribed drugs are no different than illegally obtained drugs. In fact, if you check it out you'll note that F A R more people die each year from the effects of medically prescribed drugs than from self-administered illegal drugs. Note also that, universally among employees, H&S consultants/consultancies are widely regarded as parasites (or as my union H&S guy put it: "just nod and pat them on the head...they mean well")

Posted By David Rae Folks Surely the gist of this particular issue is that if an employee wants to return early to work - they will, and if not, they won't. We cannot force personnel to return against their wishes(it can only ever be an option) For the person who DOES want to return early, there must be adequate safeguards in place. On previous contracts, we have managed this early return to work through an interview process involving the interviewee, HR, our site nurse, the HSE department and of course, the site Union Convener. Back this up with a thorough risk assessment and a close eye on your increased duty of care obligations and all should be well. Ensure the arrangements are reviewed frequently and updated as required. The benefits of getting people back to work are immeasurable - both for the company AND the person concerned. It is worth the effort. Forget about the insurance issues etc - these are red herrings. Focus on the person, their capabilities / limitations and your duty of care obligations. Finally,some of the replies to this issue indicate a lack of knowledge of what actually happens in the 'real' world. Try and get out a bit more - believe me, its worth it. Regards DR

Posted By Ken Taylor In our world, some of us are in the business of preventing people from injuring themselves and others while at work and protecting our employers from the consequences. It all seems real to me.

Posted By David Rae Folks my earlier response appears to have ruffled a feather or two. It wasn't the intention but hey, if you can't stand the heat.... Like a lot of other people who use this site, I do inhabit and work within the 'real world', and I have to come up with 'real world' solutions to typical problems concerning 'real'people. Those of you who carry out similar work will know exactly what I mean. The remainder sitting smugly in their ivory towers don't matter. Regards DR