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#1 Posted : 21 March 2004 21:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Vincent Fagan
I dont like to drag this unfortunate incident up again, but I was very curious at the time.
Is there a case for the MoD having failed in a general duty of care to their employee i.e.David Kelly(RIP), for his welfare as a result of the work he did and/or support that might be expected of an employer?
Is that too fine a point to argue? Is there an argument for some corporate responsibility on behalf of the civil service/government for his death?
I thought it was valid argument, but Im open to other opinions.
I realise this is a very sensitive issue and I apologise in advance if I come across to some as insensitive for asking questions.
Thanks
Vincent
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#2 Posted : 21 March 2004 23:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
I really don't think so.
How was the employer supposed to know he was going to talk to the snooze papers ?
If you can't stand the heat, get outa the kitchen.
All too obviously the guy was in over his head, and by all accounts had plenty of trouble outside his paid employment.
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#3 Posted : 22 March 2004 09:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alec Wood
Part of the difficulty in commenting on this particular case specifically is that the evidence from all quarters is somewhat contradictory regarding how much of his stress was generated by his employment.

Regardless of whether his employer has a case to answer this time specifically, I think we all need to spend more time considering stress. It does have an effect on people, and can do long term damage. As such, I guess we will all increasingly be facing liability claims for it in the future, and our employers will be looking to us for answers.

Civil servants do suffer stress, as any other sector does, although I am sure that they will be able to protect themselves by swathing their actions in crown immunity and judicious use of confidentiality and security policy.
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#4 Posted : 22 March 2004 11:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kelvin George
Hi Vincent

Again not wishing to upset - too much - people of a sensitive nature, but at the end of the day did he not break the law. Whether or not you agree with the specific laws of England makes no difference if you are aware of them in advance of contravening them.

I'm sorry for the man's family but if you decide to break the law then you must be prepared to face the punishment if you get caught doing it. Therefore in my opinion - as much as I hate saying this because I believe all people involved with Government and secret keeping as being somewhat suspect - his employer did not owe him any duty of care.
Does it not say in H&SAW etc Act 1974 section 7(b) about employees duty to their employer and I should imagine that in his case that not telling all he knows to a journalist would be well covered.

I as final comment, should we not be more concerned with the honest, commited working population who are abused and mistreated (pregnant women sacked just for being pregnant) by unscrupulous employers without wasting our time on dishonest and law breaking individuals. As H&S practitioners muddying the waters will only make your job - and hopefully mine in the future - harder.

Sorry if I have gone off on a tangent,

Cheers Kelvin
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#5 Posted : 22 March 2004 15:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stephen Ashton
Kelvin,

sorry, but I think you must have missed the Public Interest Disclosure Act - section 43G1. According to this Act, Mr Kelly should have been legally protected from any detriment following his disclosure - not subject to public flogging by committee.

On the one hand the Official Secrets Act - on the other a concerned whistleblower. It would take a highly trained (and very expensive) legal mind to establish which Act takes precedence....

And a braver man than most to break ranks and speak out following this affair.

Steve
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#6 Posted : 22 March 2004 19:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
Doctor Kelly was a highly respected scientist employed by the MoD. In this position he had a legal duty, as self declared by signing the Official Secrets Act (OSA), to maintain a certain decorum in what was said, and to whom it was said.

I undestand that Dr. Kelly broke the OSA by discussing issues covered by the OSA in the course of his work with a journalist. It would also appear, that in public (his second TV interview and only broadcast after the inquiry) his comments differed from those claimed to have been given to the journalist in private interviews!

Whilst I am very sorry that Dr. Kelly ended his life - and for his family, I do not believe that the circumstances leading to his actions, to break the OSA or sunsequently in taking his own life, are due to the actions or ommisions of his employer, but resulted from his own perceptions of the situation, and what he thought could or could not be gained or retrieved from the situation in which he found himself.

One could suppose, that if he had observed his undertaking of the declaration he made in signing the OSA, he may well be alive today....

In such matters, I think the term 'whistleblowing' can only apply if one has a whistle to blow... Dr Kelly could not have it both ways in what he stated, yes there are one the one hand and no there are not on the other.... someone of his standing and obvious intellect should I think have realised the situation - he was painting himself into a corner - and, as it appears, saw no other way out.... A sorry and very sad end of a well respected obviously very talented man.
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#7 Posted : 22 March 2004 19:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
"public interest disclosure" "whistle blower"..............yeah, right. Just another guy who set-out to get his name in the paper by moralising about things.
While everyone is whinging about things being disclosed in the "public interest" all the terrorist groups are busy being interested in blowing the public to bits.
I think the problem was not with his employers but with a press eager to use anything to damage the government.
If anything, the press ought to be prosecuted.
Wasters the lot of them.
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#8 Posted : 22 March 2004 20:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Allaway
I must say I agree with Kelvins final statement... Committed Health and Safety experts pondering over, and having such broad and ambiguous thoughts such as this will only lead to 'surfers' who happen to transit through this site leave thinking that WE are sadder than perhaps H&S officials are perceived to be..(not my thourghts!) We should concentrate on sorting H&S out... if we crack that ....then lets start looking at global peace!
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#9 Posted : 23 March 2004 15:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Vincent Fagan
I would like to thank all who commented. It certainly works to get other interesting points of view. They were much appreciated and have balanced my opinion better
I realise I may not know as much as about the affair as I thought and really dont want to be over-analytical,...
...but i still feel he was hung out to dry by all sections involved.
Little care was given for his welfare, and in a more perfect world(perhaps a nordic country), management would have handled it better.
Some (ultimate)consequences of ones actions are undeserved and for example suicide(of this type) should be avoidable in this day and age.
Thanks again
Vincent
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