Posted By Geoff Burt In an informal internet discussion forum based on H&S - and with contributors and readers from around the world - we have complaints about spelling! No wonder we get a bad name!

Posted By John Allen I have to say that from time to time the spelling and grammatical errors on this forum have sometimes amused me and occasionally annoyed me. I have three observations. 1. We know that in recent years formal grammar has not been taught in schools. While this would have been a great relief to people like me who were taught to analyse sentences in primary school, the downside is that we have a now have a generation of people who do not understand the formal structure of language. 2. In recent years there has been a huge upsurge in text messaging, often using a system of abbreviations. I have no problem with this and use it myself. However it should stay on the mobile phone. A full QWERTY keyboard in front of you leaves no excuse for unnecessary or confusing abbreviations or shorthand. 3. Many people for whom English is not their first language actually have a better understanding of the rules of English Grammar than native speakers. Only a couple of weeks ago I was corrected by a Venezuelan for a grammatical error, a correction I readily accepted. In short I don’t think it’s petty to strive for clear and unambiguous communication. We work in a field where the comprehension of written instructions is vital. Trying to understand the nuances of meaning in the written word is often difficult enough (was that a genuine remark or was irony intended?) without unintentional errors. Read “Eats Shoots and Leaves” (or is that “Eats, Shoots and Leaves" ?) by Lynne Truss.

Posted By John Allen Richard min, fit like? It wis nae bandicoot, it wis a big black an fite futrit fae China! ‘slater At’s in Doric, fit fowk spik in Aiberdeen an twal mile roon.

Posted By Geoff Burt Quite right Eric, but isn't self restraint a wonderful thing? I saw a road sign for Chester the other day but resisted temptation!

Posted By Laurie While studying for my certificate I was once taken to task for saying that if a grinding wheel broke up parts would "ejected" rather than "projected" (it might have been the other way around - I really can't remember!). My point that it really didn't matter, either way they were going very fast and were very dangerous, was not well received! Laurie

Posted By David J. Whilst I "dina want" (bad speeling or ethnic glasgow) you decide!!! to get involved in what does seem trivia I think there may be merit to both sides. bad spelling etc. can be irritating and I suppose in some instances may cause confusion. The number of responses and content of some to the initial error and this thread does suggest Zoe's (or should that be Zoes'... never did get a handle on that there grammar!!!!!), case has merit Oh I thought "eats, shoots and leaves" was a joke relating to a panda, a lady of the night and a dictionary!!!!!!! but then??????????????? trivia, what trivia..............

Posted By Paul Costelloe Geoff, You say the whole subject is petty but still go to the trouble of starting a new thread of your own on the subject. If you were trying to drum up support of your viewpoint, then from the majority of responses above, I would say you have failed.

Posted By Paul Costelloe Can I just draw a line under this discussion by saying that I'm sorry to all the delicate flowers who have been 'upset', and made 'deeply unhappy' at my comments regarding the appalling state of spelling and grammar on this forum. These whiners have made more of an issue of the 'triviality', 'cra*', pettiness etc. (their words not mine) of defending the English language, than the real issue of some peoples poor literacy. I would be interested to see how some of you cope with giving H & S presentations to 100 or so offshore workers, as I have to do next week. This would really give an opportunity to preach about political correctness and other peoples sensitivities - I guess they would turn some of you into jibbering wrecks ! Come on ladies - welcome to the real world. And Geoff, yes I do consider my response to what has become a boring crusade of yours - "reasonable". Can we now please turn to real issues and resume normal service. One thing is for sure _ I bet a lot of contributors are double checking their postings before pressing the 'submit' button - I know I am !

Posted By Richard Spencer Ladies, Ladies, and the few odd ‘Gentleman’, I pose this question: If the English is not supported in this forum as to the correctness of language, who will? Contributors to this chat page are assumed to have some professional learning at least a basic high school education. It would in my view not be presumptuous to assume that those composing original thought or responding to it, do so with a properly prepared statement. Some of us are Trainers, Advisors, Managers, Senior Consultant, or Technocrats, or come from some other related part of the Occupations Health and Safety spectrum which demands that we have the highest standard of communication. It is the expectation that any entry made here receives careful attention to detail so that the vehicle by which thought, can be expressed, through the written word, can be understood in its entirety. To do anything else betrays one’s dignity and illustrates a weakness in the learning processes, serving to refer those it concerns to a flaw. Richard For those who think they have ceased learning: “Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young.” Henry Ford

Posted By Geoff Burt Do I detect signs of stress Paul?

Posted By Richard Spencer Jack Your point once more, I'm not sure what it is? Richard

Posted By Ian Stone Rob Well said ian

Posted By Hilary Charlton Excellently well said Geoff, I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. Hilary

Posted By Laurie Hey you cheeky devil! I made a response to this thread (two actually) and I'm not a petty bureaucrat!! Good to see some sense creeping in though Laurie

Posted By David J. I assume ( I know one should never assume), Paul, that the off shore workers you mention are all english lit graduate calibre ace on the spelling and grammar. Or should the assumption be (see above)they are "scarry" and thus one requires a high level of grammer and spelling to appease them??? Silly me i just thought making presentations was just part of my job..

Posted By Richard Spencer it would appear there is a general lack of concern for the manner in which we correspond through the medium of the written word. To say that it does not matter errors occur in correspondence and is supported by the so-called elite of OHS practitioners is an astounding revelation. I was educated in the engineering profession and it is broadly accepted fact that many of the engineering profession are not particularly good a spelling. Well I for one have seen this as a weakness and try where ever possible to ensure what I have written conveys the spirit of my thoughts, in the Queen's English. I could if I was spineless claim this as an excuse – however I don’t and wonder what excuse those from a non engineering background provide is supporting poorly document correspondence and bad spelling? It seems ‘Bluster’ and more abuse and the gain saying ‘out of context’ of any valid point made is the rabid response. If you see me as Yoda then I am honoured for he stands for principals of behaviour, and wisdom to aid decisions. Better still being able to Call upon the ‘Force’, might certainly be a benefit. To claim that it of no consequence to ‘massacre’ the English language is a revelation. To learn that it is supported, is astonishing. If the truth be known, no one likes to read any document that is poorly worded and misspelt. For those who have been in the armed services or public service, you will know that this would be totally unacceptable. Richard

Posted By John Murgatroyd i agree this is pathetic what do we need to go-on about spelling and punctuation for all the time you can either spell and punctuate or you cant reading things and getting the correct meaning without punctuation may be hard but its not impossible too many people think that being grammatically correct is necessary to have correct understanding of the written word but this missive should convince you that its not necessary to use commas or fullstops or semicolons to get people to see what you mean in what you have written. Sorry about the spelling, but having had a grammar school education I find it hard to spell incorrectly. Although the odd typo gets through. The other person commenting about this being a health and safety site may like to consider that it is a health and safety AS A CAREER site. In all-too-many cases recently it has had advice on what to do about "skiving" workers taking "sickies". The reality about the H&S industry, is that it has little to do with the health and safety of the individual worker, and much more to do with the health and safety of the H&S personnels salaries. As in the latest HSE scheme "It's about risk management, not safety, stupid" ie: It's about managing to stop people being killed on-site, and much less about long-term ill-health effects of work. But then, what do you expect from an industry that places its own salaries and conditions on a higher plane of existence ?

Posted By Hilary Charlton Indeed

Posted By Hilary Charlton There comes a time when one has beaten one's head against a brick wall so many times that it hurts - if one continues to bash one's head against the same wall endlessly then one must be regarded as somewhat deranged to say the least. If, on the other hand, one decides to walk away, one is derided by other persons still bashing their heads against the same brick wall. Who is the more in need of help?

Posted By David Edward Partington To Paul Costello - I was annoyed by your posting. I am HS chap for Southwark Housing. Geoff's consultancy work with us. We employ many Africans and people from around the world. Many of whose names are very difficult to pronounce, let alone spell. Geoff always works well with these people, spells their names correctly and is able to successfully communicate his intentions in all circumstances. What (I think) he is saying is that a language that is determined by two regions (Oxford and Cambridge) is not correct for all other areas, and what is important is that it is understood. As a Southeast Londoner my accent is not correct (apparently) nor is the way in which I wish to spell things and I am told that my ENGLISH is bad. I speak my local dialect. Your correct ENGLISH has nothing to do with the regions of the country. As our team (Millwall) are about to win the FA cup (RManagement, Cahil to score the first goal - millwall to win - millwall to win 1-0 - ~ 650/1 I recommend it tied to one unit of millwall to win is good RManagement) then we should (having won the cup) be allowed to pick the language spoken and you strange speaking types should speak as we do - it is the fairest way to say who's ENGLISH is correct - Unlike Millwall and Southeast London I am not sure what Oxford and Cambridge have achieved. Regards David.