Posted By Keith Williams Can anybody please explain why CITB will not accept a NEBOSH Construction Certificate (9 month part time course) as health and safety pre-qualification for a CSCS Card, if it was attained more than two years before the date of application; yet a 45 minute, 40 question Mickey Mouse CITB multi-guess safety passport is recognised. Am I being cynical, or is it that CITB just want their pound of flesh.

Posted By Joel Frorath No, you're not being cynical and you are not alone in your opinions. CITB are out of date and out of touch in many ways and its about time that someone kicked them into touch rather than just trying to fleece levy money out of all and sundry just to keep themselves going. The CSCS scheme is I think laughable in many ways and has not been thought out properly. Ouch!

Posted By John Caboche Yes they do recognise a NEBOSH construction cert, (they recognised mine!!). If you undertook the CITB Site Managers Safety Training Scheme,(SMSTS) in the last two years they recognise that as well. Otherwise you need to do the SMSTS re cert. You you do not have to undertake your touchscreen test if you meet these criteria. They do not recognise the general cert as it is not construction specific. My guess is that due to volume of calls at Bircham Newton, you have got one of their newly recruited operators who does not completely "Know the Ropes" yet (or indeed the difference between the general and construction certs...). If you apply on industry accreditation and enclose a copy of your certificate/pass sheet you will get your card back in about 5 weeks and no Michael J Mouse test to take. Honest. Hope this clears up any confusion. John

Posted By ian mcnally Keith, I have to agree with you in many respects. The initial idea of CSCS I thought was to raise the levels of safety awareness. I certainly recommended that the company I work for promote the scheme which they did back in 1995. One of the difficulties was perhaps launching a scheme and then completely changing the goal posts a few years later. Many of the individuals I speak to that are actually working in the industry on site were disillusioned by the changes and think the current scheme is of little value and is just another ruse to generate money. I have even spoken to a number of CITB employees who privately agree with that viewpoint. Some office support who have never been on a site or trained in construction have passed the TS test. To make matters worse a supervisor can obtain a black managers card with just two signatures from their employer (should this really be considered sufficient to demonstrate competence?) The organisation I work for will not insist on CSCS but will accept it as a minimum site entry permit. Importantly we will be delivering two half day courses (free of charge to all our core contractors) covering a previously approved CITB syllabus. The delegates will have to achieve a pass at 70% (not too difficult questions that will be made relevant to their work activity). Delegates will need to demonstrate they understand the process of basic risk assessment and method statement with particular focus on; HSW, EPA & MHSWR with a bit on PUWER, LOLER, COSHH, PPE, and Emergency procedures and relevant BSEN and guidance. The training techniques will use a good deal of hazard spotting to assist with understanding. Cards will be issued with other skills added on the back (abrasive wheels, confined space entry, slinger signaller etc) and last for 5 yrs. I feel this demonstrates real commitment to assist and train the workforce. I am hopeful that as well as raising awareness it may even mean something to the cardholder ( perhaps that is taking it too far). Who knows if other organisations follow the idea? . A course could be standardised and transferable. It may be worth remembering that the MGC do not account for the majority of the workforce and although they have at least tried to generate awareness I feel a little more could have been done a lot sooner. I like many believe that the CITB are an excellent organisation and deliver quality courses, although perhaps on this issue they could have benefited from wider consultation before launching another scheme. Of course, they may have been under other pressures to improve training and achieve unrealistic accident reduction targets, but then this I’m sure is for another time. Interesting enough, my involvement with the IOSH South Downs Branch Construction Specialist Group will be discussing passport schemes and competencies at our next meeting on 23rd June at Shoreham Airport, visitors would be most welcome to share their views. After all the sooner we improve training the sooner we will reduce accidents which I know is what most safety professionals are keen to do! Ian McNally

Posted By Dave Daniel I would concur your cynicism Keith. I deal with many small companies operating peripheral construction services for whom this system is just so much trouble for no benefit (apart from the CITB's - oh sorry - CSCS Ltd - an entirely unrelated business which merely operates from the CITB's Bircham Newton site and uses their facilities..)and my clients routinely tell me that the sites they work on are ones where even Kosovans with no English seem to have got a CSCS card.... The thought that the Construction Industry thinks that the rest of the world ought to work like them is ridiculous. Is is seriously being suggested that all Ford car workers might one day need a CSCS card to prove their competence in "construction work" because the local builder turns up on site in a Transit van????? Dave Daniel Technical Director Practical Risk Management Ltd

Posted By Ciaran McAleenan Dear all The debate about cards (CSCS or otherwise) has missed the point and can only serve to be detrimental to H&S on construction if the focus is not shifted back to competence where it truly belongs. Cards, passports etc may have their place but only within a structured competence development plan. For whatever reasons the Government in the South of Ireland put a requirements for Safe Pass cards [CSCS equivalent] into their construction safety legislation. To achieve this you undertake a one-day general H&S course and pass a simple test. Any client or employer worth their salt would ask for much more than this when employing a competent contractor/ worker. In NI and in UK there is an equivalent CSR/ CSCS card but thankfully there is no mandatory requirement to have this. What there is a need for and this has been enshrined in law for a very long time is the need to have workers trained and competent in the skills areas that they are required to demonstrate and in the control measures relating to the particular hazards associated with the tasks that they will perform. In NI the Government/ Public Sector clients will be requiring evidence of this by December 2004. For them it is all about competence not cards. I am aware, through various publications that specific groups in UK are asking for CSCS cards for workers and visitors to their sites. The question I have to ask is will this improve safety performance or detract from it? The construction industry, worldwide, could do well by considering the lead given by NI public sector clients and focus the attention away from cards and onto competence. Regards and best wishes Ciaran Note: A similar debate is running on the "FAS Safety Programme Ireland" thread.

Posted By Jimmy Couldn't agree more James. There are claims that CSCS are talking to a whole host of "Passport" issuers (even across EU. I am not aware that they are talking to The Safe-Pass Alliance who deal with food safety,extractions (ie quarries and minerals)and maintanance on petrol station forecourts (which covers hazardous areas). I would say that the latter two carry alot more credibility than the CSCS card. More to the point there alot of very good construction companies in the UK that do not affiliate to the CSCS, and operate their own safety systems, but it seems that big companies are brainwashed into believing that if its not CSCS marked then dont even bother tendering. Draw your own conclusion!

Posted By Lorraine Mitchell 1) The card was thought up many years before the MCG and their safety officers started to drive it. Basically it was to protect the housewife from Cowboys - CITB Presentation Taunton late 1990s 2) The major management cards, Contracts Managers and Site Supervisors are now no longer industry accreditation. A few new inventions - Architectural Technician etc etc + general site operative remain as the "Grandfather rite of entry" 3) The major most cynical question is are our human rights being affronted? After all any inteligent person should be capable of handling the H & S Test. It is the Blue Collar man, possibly dyslexic, maybe unhappy with computers who is suffering. Remember with the CPCS card no matter how experienced or how old, before you can get a full ticket you have got to get an NVQ!!! insulting or what.