Posted By Zoe Barnett Morning all! I am working with a school at which there are many problems, not least of which is the total lack of any kind of fire precautions. Needless to say we are working on this pretty intensely. However I would welcome colleague's thoughts on the following scenario. The school is strapped for cash, has an incredibly high turnover of staff and is due to be flattened and completely rebuilt within the next six months. At presnt no-one is trained in the use of extinguishers. Just about the only thing they've got going for them is a lack of conker trees. I have assessed the place as very low fire risk, and there are good escape routes from all areas (or there will be once we've finished with them). All classrooms can evacuate directly into the grounds and we're introducing a warden system. I feel that the current patchy provision of extinguishers in the school, some of which have not been tested in the last 5 years, is doing more harm than good and have recommended scrapping the lot except those in the IT suite and servery, as these are the only areas presenting anything like a significant risk. The new head is very supportive but was dubious about having a school with so few fire extinguishers. I feel that in the circumstances there is good justification for not installing FEs and spending money training staff until the new build is ready, at which time we can install permanent systems. I'd be grateful as ever for colleagues' thoughts on this one.

Posted By James Goodstadt The trouble with scrapping your fire extinguishers with nothing in their place is that you will be breaking the law - not sure which of the fire laws covers schools - probably the Fire precautions (workplaces) regs which requires the following: “Fire-fighting and fire detection 4. - (1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of a workplace, the activity carried on there, any hazard present there or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of employees in case of fire - (a) a workplace shall, to the extent that is appropriate, be equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and (b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided shall be easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs[19], and for the purposes of sub-paragraph (a) what is appropriate is to be determined by the dimensions and use of the building housing the workplace, the equipment it contains, the physical and chemical properties of the substances likely to be present and the maximum number of people that may be present at any one time. (2) An employer shall, where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of his employees in case of fire - (a) take measures for fire-fighting in the workplace, adapted to the nature of the activities carried on there and the size of his undertaking and of the workplace concerned and taking into account persons other than his employees who may be present; (b) nominate employees to implement those measures and ensure that the number of such employees, their training and the equipment available to them are adequate, taking into account the size of, and the specific hazards involved in, the workplace concerned; and (c) arrange any necessary contacts with external emergency services, particularly as regards rescue work and fire-fighting.” I’m not sure if you ended up in court you could get away with saying you thought no extinguishers or training would be sufficient. I would also have concerns about relying on extinguishers that have not been tested for 5 years (the BS recommends every year – not sure what your local authority rules would say, but I imagine something similar) Hope this helps, but if not, email me and I’ll try and be more helpful. Regrads James

Posted By Zoe Barnett Just to clarify - he idea is that we will be keeping the extinguishers in the high risk areas, and getting rid of the old ones everywhere else. The classrooms are very low risk - only source of ignition is electrical equipment which is all PAT tested and away from the doors - and all have direct exits to a place of safety. It is the need for an extinguisher in every classroom that is being queried.

Posted By steve e ashton Ooops sorry Zoe - good to see you're aware of the law! The last school fire safety issue I was involved with was a boarding block fire drill evacuation - where the Fire Cert requirements of FPA did apply, since it was classified in the same way as a hotel or boarding house..... And I didn't think too deeply before putting finger to keyboard.... I would still be extremely cautious about putting my name on any reduction in fire safety provision unless I was 100% satisfied that existing provision was way over the top... Once equipment has been provided, that suggests someone, some time, did a fire risk assessment and concluded the equipment was necessary (even if it was the builder or the extinguisher supply company). The risk assessment may not have been a legal requirement at the time the kit was provided, not recorded since the Fire Safety Regs, or not retrievable now for whatever reason, but you are still 'assessing' the risk at a lower level than someone else has done previously. Can you justify this? Your assessment against someone else's - that suggests a potential for liability that must be considered very carefully. If that 'someone else' was the local Fire Prevention Officer providing advice on request from the school, then you are on a hiding to nothing if it ever does come to litigation. I do sympathise, sorry for the earlier error, good luck. Steve

Posted By Neil Pearson You may make a policy decision that people won't fight fires IF THEY CAN AVOID DOING SO. But you may need that extinguisher to help you escape, especially if there's no second escape route. You say escape routes are good, so perhaps that's okay. But I would advise against it, and as others have said above, you're on dodgy ground legally. Regardless of what the local fire safety office may advise, someone else might throw the book at you!

Posted By John Webster Zoe I would certainly question the need for extingishers in each classroom. If you have the classic sort of layout with classrooms opening directly onto a main corridor with exit routes at each end, then, subject to the floor area proviso, extinguishers at each end should suffice. If the corridor is broken into zones by fire doors, then one between each set of fire doors should be adequate.

Posted By Neil Pearson Sorry Zoe didn't notice your second post about not eliminating all extinguishers.

Posted By Merv Newman I agree completely with Laurie. My advice in training sessions is always "If you have told someone else that there is a fire (999, guardhouse or whatever) and you are SURE you can handle it, then go for the extinguisher. Otherwise get out. I would rather lose the building than you" Merv

Posted By Zoe Barnett Thanks for all the responses - John, Merv and Laurie, you have reassured me! Obviously when the new building is ready we will have a completely different approach (as we do in the vast majority of schools) but this is such an unusual situation that I wanted to hear what colleagues thought. Although it wasn't regarding this particular situation I too have been told by a local fire officer that in the case of FEs it's all or nothing. At the school in question, given the combination of circumstances, I honestly think that nothing - or at least nearly nothing - is the safest approach and will advise the head and governors accordingly. Many thanks again to all for such a wide and informed response.

Posted By fats van den raad Zoe FE training on the cheap.. we get the company that carries out the anual inspections to train % of employees on using FE's. As they have to discharge 25% of FE during inspection in any case, they use this opportunity to give staff a hands-on training session. And they do it for free..(Or at least as part of the service contract)