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Posted By Kit Wolf
Can anyone explain to me if this accident is reportable!
We had an Employee come back from sick leave on the 22nd Nov, The Employee went sick after the working day on the 11th Nov, we didn't know at this stage that he had had an accident until he returned on the 22nd. He explained that he'd injured himself on the 8th Nov, didn't tell anyone, carried on working until the 11th, went sick until the 22nd, never rang to say that this was why he was sick. Can I put it into the accident book, do I also record as a RIDDOR.
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Posted By Jim Walker
If in doubt send in a RIDDOR.
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Agree with Jim and would add that now is the time to do a complete incident investigation recording all relevant details including the circumstances that led to the failure if the individual to report the initial injury.
I would also consider reviewing staff training on the reporting of injuries so that it doesn't occur again.
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Posted By David A Jones
It sounds like a RIDDOR reportable incident in that he was off for more than 3 days as a result of the incident.
HOWEVER, before sending in the RIDDOR report I would undertake a full investigation to satisfy yourself that this incident occurred resulting in the eventual time off sick.
I would then send off the RIDDOR report stating the reason for late reporting that you have only just been informed of the incident by the injured party and include the findings of your investigation, especially if you cannot confirm that the incident did in fact occur.
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Posted By James M
Kit,
I would check to see if he has got any proof of his medical condition (a doctor's note)before committing yourself to any report. Also check your working practices manual to see if there has been any breach of procedures. Why was it not reported? When was he fit to return to work?
Have you interviewed the person? Has there been a post accident risk assessment to look at eliminating reoccurrence?
By carrying out the above it will assist you in finding out if it is reportable and give you a heads up as to whether your procedures require reviewing.
Do NOT report it until you have found out the facts. (you are already over the 10 days anyway) It will potentially leave your organization with egg on its face.
Hope this helps.
Jim
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Posted By Richard L
Two weeks to report an accident?
Sounds like bogus claim material to me! Get ready for the letter.
Richard
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Posted By George Wedgwood
Maybe I'm a bit synical but this smells of a claim in the offing! He has gone off, thrown a sickie and his mates have told him he could get a claim if he reports it as an 'accident' when he goes back! Was there no supervision in the operation so that at least a record of him leaving to go home and why, might have been kept? Was there an HSE Poster for him to see his rights? He may be misinformed but these facts can be dealt with firmly once you have a few more facts about the incident and treat it as if it were a disciplinary - after all he failed to follow company policy in not reporting an injury. My instinct would be to interview him (a tad less than formal) but make him realise that a company investigation process is underway and that his failure to report and feedback his condition has resulted in a serious inconvenience to the company, making it difficult for them to support his position. This is all far more important that reporting it to the HSE - they know employees play the game often so are sympathetic providing company processes are seen and validated to be carried out. G.
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Posted By Mark Bywater
What was that noise?
Probably just the letter from his legel team dropping onto you door mat.
Sounds very fishy - a serious investigation and potential disciplinary regarding breach of company procedure sounds about right.
Make sure all your ducks are in a row and learn from this experience.
If it isn't written down - it didn't get done! I live by this motto - my shift managers hate me for it, but boy does it give me some ammo!
Mark (with many years claims experience)
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Posted By Pete Walker
Kit
I have to agree with the those of the suspicious nature on this one due to many years bitter experience.
I had a similar case once and the HSE said to me "if the accident is not reported to you within the 10 days you have to report it to the HSE - then how can you report it"?
Remind your employees of the instructions given inside the new BI510 accident reporting book. It is the duty of the injured person to report the accident to their employer as soon as they are able to following the accident.
As the others say do a full investigation and keep your records for the claim.
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Posted By Shelagh O'Sullivan
I had a broadly similar instance a couple of years ago. The internal investigation became protracted due to communication breakdown from all sides.
When we received a claim from the employee, months later, it transpired that the RIDDOR report had not been submitted. I contacted Caerphilly reporting centre and they were happy to accept the RIDDOR report retrospectively.
We are none of us perfect and get it right every time. The enforcing bodies usually seem happy to help you put things right.
I agree, if in doubt, report it. I have actually recinded a report when I eventually found out a work injury was actually a football injury.
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Posted By Bill Fisher
Kit
I am afraid I disagree with Jim's statement.
If an employee comes to you and says that they have hurt themself in an accident (whether at the time or on return from sick leave) should you automatically believe them?
If the employee appears with blood gushing then it is not unreasonable. What if he arrives at you saying he has hurt his back (for example)? Did it happen at work or the night before?
In all cases I would advise you to investigate. If the investigation provides sufficient weight to the claims then RIDDOR would seem appropriate with a covering letter explaining delay. As for the employee he will need "advice" on your procedures.
If the investigation is inconclusive then do not submit a RIDDOR report! If you put in a RIDDOR, no matter that you scribe your doubts etc, that report will be entered on the system and won't be removed.
In this case I would write to your HSE Office advising them that an employee has reported an accident, you have investigated and cannot satisfy yourself as to the accident occurring.
In this way you are reporting, you are accepting the employee's report but you are not as a company accepting (liability) due to inconclusive evidence.
This will satisfy HSE, not be lodged on the system against your company, your insurance company will be happy and you don't have to call your employee (in base terms) a liar.
Bill
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Posted By J Knight
On one occasion I reported an incident some 16 months after the event. An employee fell out of a garden swing (at work) and injured her knee. She took no time off immediately following the event, but continuing problems meant that she eventually needed surgery. The resulting absence was directly attributable to the accident, and was therefore reportable. The only time limit in this sense is with industrial death; a death must occur within twelve months of an injury in oredr for it to be reportable.
I have always felt that reporting to HSE is in no way an admission of culpability; by making a report prior to an investigation all you are saying is that 'this has been reported to me'. As has been stated already HSE will happily accept amendments to an initial report and will rescind a report if future events cast doubt on its validity. I don't see the need for back-covering here,
john
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Posted By Mark Bywater
It's an interesting point raised by Bill, whereby the company is not admitting liability due to lack of eveidence.
I'd love to agree with this view but the law of the land places the onus on us as the employer, to prove that we have done everything in our power to reduce risks, train staff, put in place control measures and enforce all of this as well as recording the fact.
In my experience there are a number of employees who have not injured themselves at work and claimed to have done so. We are then at duty to record the accident, investigate and put in place measures to ensure there is no repeat.
Without any witnesses this person is now on record as having suffered an injury at work and is capable of instigating a (fraudulent) claim against his employer.
RIDDOR aside (sorry for the hijack) I am fed up with these type of people who have no need to prove anything and hold my company to ransom just to get a new car, double glazing, holiday etc at the expense of the company. Often there has been no loss of wages, bonus, any time off or even any first aid treatment.
It's Friday and I'm fed up with liability claims, roll on the weekend.............Aaaggh!
Mark
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Posted By Bill Fisher
Mark
Whilst accepting the points made about the employers duties and responsibilities, you will agree, I'm sure, that the law does not require us to take ownership of an "accident" which either didn't happen or was a result of the employee having an "accident" after the company had done all that it reasonably could do.
Without a witness I still contest that, as you say, if the company has done all that was reasonable then it will be fairly easy to defend in a safety case and indeed in a claim.
I am aware of a company that wasn't prosecuted after the death of an employee who fell from a height; he was an advanced scaffolder building a bridging section. When I arrived at his side there was a harness on the ground - it was cut and his mate said he had cut it off him to render first aid.
The company was able to show that they had trained, warned, retrained, issued harness, reminded on use etc, etc. I (I worked for the Client)was also able to show that the cuts didn't tie into removal in the situation.
HSE were happy that the company had done all that was reasonable, and that bit more.
A last point on the Report Form. I am told by HSE that once a form goes in it is entered and tweaks will be made - but it stays on record. Whereas a letter provides the necessary communication, will be held on file but will not be on the records database.
Regards
Bill
P.s. I need new windows - any chance of a job? Sorry - it sounds as if you have a hoard of such people in your organisation. Frustrating or what!
As for the weekend you will be glad it is only two days - allows you to get back and write a few more of the claims off sooner.
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Posted By Laurie
As ever, CYA and report it under RIDDOR.
I have made many late reports and as long as you can give a reasonable explanation for the delay there is never any problem.
Laurie
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Posted By Steve T-L
One aspect that has not been mentioned so far is what did the employee state when he notified the absence to the organisation. In our organisation a home visit would be expected if the absence was greater than 5 days and it would be inconceivable that the employee did not mention the accident during these contacts with the organisation and then upon their return to work brought up the issue. I would suggest that HR procedures would also need interrogating in these circumstance.
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Posted By Nigel Singleton BSc
Why are you all so afraid of reporting RIDDOR, why not ring them and ask them, after all the new reporting centre are actually friendly and helpful. At worst they will say - lets have it then at best they will say - not interested.
They are much more fussy if you did not report it and then it turns out you should have done.
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Posted By P Williams
Deffinately needs reporting if it is work related, but there is not reason why you cannot also give an explanation of the reasons it is late.
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