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Posted By Chris Matthews
The temperature of the hot tap water within office in which I work appears to have significantly increased recently. It has always been pretty hot but without dramatising you could probably make your coffee with it now, and could not bare to put your hands under for more than a second.
Our service providers tell me that this has to be maintained at between 50 and 60 degrees to stop legionairres disease, and that it is only 55, which I would dispute anyway.
Is this true? surely the risk of scolding, and or cross infection via telephone hands sets and PC's where persons fail to clean their hands as they dont wish to be scolded is higher than the former risk.
And yes I know if you put in the plug and mix the water it is cooler but that is not the point.
The comments of the many professionals reading this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Chris
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
Whilst a small number of people may be put off washing their hands the risk of infection from dirty hands is a lot smaller that the risks from legionella (a killer)
The other place that requires attention for legionnella is shower heads that are not used frequently.
Usually suitable signage indicating that care is needed because of the 'hot' water is enough to prevent scalding
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Posted By PaulA
What is wrong with mixing cold with it? I'm sure there would be complaints if there was no hot water at all! I lay myself open to the mercy of certain leading lights and appreciate fully the seriousness of scolding etc.. but you seem to have a problem with the addition of the cold water?
Have you spoken to the buildings duty holder to see the possibilty of placing a thermostatic valve below the taps to regulate the temp of the hot?
How is your bath at home? can you run a bath for 5 mins from just the hot and jump in.. (or many hotels, B&B's etc!) I doubt it! After all.... it is a HOT tap..
Is your employer doing AFAIRP to stop people getting injured?
Is it not 37 degrees on most thermostatic shower valves??
Regards Paul
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Posted By Artful Dodger
43*C is usually quoted as a maximum for nursing homes/hospital and the like.
The 55*C is correct to control legionella, but is too hot for skin contact, a mixing/thermostatic valve should be installed just before the tap.
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Posted By Timothy Capner
Hi All
Further to the posting from the Artful Dodger, I would note that HSE have prosecuted organisations for scalding injuries where the water temperature was >50 deg centigrade. That would appear to be the max temp allowable 'at the tap'.
Regards
Tim C
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Posted By Simon Ayee
The perception of temperature by feel is very subjective and should only be relied on as a guide. My experience is that water temperatures quickly become uncomfortable over a fairly narrow temperature range above 40 C.
In most workplaces it is quite acceptable (in fact desirable for legionella control) to have water reaching 55 C + at the tap. Given the availability of cold water and a plug a comfortable washing temperature can be easily mixed. Scalding will be dependant on temperature and contact time. Obviously keeping the temperature reasonably close to 55 saves energy as well as reducing scalding risk.
Thermostatic mixers etc may be necessary in some circumstances based on an assessment of risk e.g. where users are particularly at risk from scalding (e.g. young children, some people with learning difficulties, some older persons), likelihood of immersion and extent of immersion etc.
Also it doesn't always matter how good your washing facilities are when there is a significant proportion of the male (not sure what happens in womens toilets!) population who don't wash their hands at all !
Simon
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Posted By Laurie
I agree with the principles of the answers, but we are dealing with real people in real situations.
Most people, particularly those of the male variety (if they bother to wash their hands at all!), will not put the plug in the sink and run hot/cold water, but will try to handwash under running water.
I have found the best solution to avoid either scalding under hot water or incomplete washing under cold is a mixer tap
Laurie
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Posted By P Williams
the recommended temps for controlling legionalla are min 60 degrees c for the storage facility and min 50 degrees c in the distribution pipework (for hot water this is) The cold water should be maintained below 20 degrees c which is not usually a problem except in very hot weather and this can be combatted easily by insulating the pipework or storage tanks. Legionella is less of a risk at wash basins since you are not creating lungs full of aerosols but nevertheless it is a risk. Whether or not TMVs are required is again down to risk assessment. If the facilities are used by vulnerable people ie children or the eldery or those with sensory loss then I would condider it necessary to control the temp to certainly below 50 by mechanical means ie TMVs. The recommended temp of 43 applies to where you have total body immersion ie bath shower. It is the policy of HSE and LA EHOs to enforce the need for mechanical controls for shower and bath facilities used by vulnerable populations and the strongly advise mechanical controls for wash basins. In this case I would suggest turning the temp down a little whilst still maintaining 60 degrees at the calorifier
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Posted By David J Bristow
Chris
I think the only reference to how hot water should be is 49% and this you will find in the food hygiene regulations.
Regards
David b
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear Chris,
Here we have several conflicting needs; Water must be kept above 50 C to kill Legionella Sp. HSE recommend in their ACOP & guidance that the water be at 50 C at the furthest point in the system. However 50 C will cause severe skin damage after around 1 minutes contact. The water temperature required to cause skin damage is lower in the old, infirm, and those taking steriods. Therefore to prevent skin damage the recommended temperature is 43 C. This temperature should be attained through the use of mixer taps. Furthermore the optimum temperature for hand washing is 25 C and temperatures of 43 C discourage people from hand washing. Therefore I would suggest a lower water temperature for areas where persons regularly wash their hands, such as nursing stations etc.
Regards Adrian Watson
PS Significant numbers of Legionella sp needs to be aerosolised and breathed in by an at risk person for there to be a significant risk of disease. This is very rarely likely to occur from a tap! :)
PPS The water temperature of 50 C for food hygiene purposes is not for hand washing basins.
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Posted By P Williams
The Food Hygiene Regs only specify hot water or water at a suitable controlled temp, for securing personal cleanliness. The temps for preventing scalding can be found in Health service guidance and in HSG220 (I think) Residential care guidance. I think it even give guidance on bidet temps. The temps for preventing legionella can be found in L8
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Chris,
ppps Just to clarify a point on my previous posting 43 C is not the recommended temperature it is the MAXIMUM recommended temperature.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Chris Matthews
Many Thanks to those that took the time to assist.
For info, when checked the temperature was actually +60c at tap, this has now been rectified.
Again thanks for your time
Regards
Chris
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Posted By Andy Petrie
PaulA,
AFAIRP?? I've never heard that one before.
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Posted By Kevin Walker
As far as is reasonably practicable
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Posted By PaulA
Kevin...
Thankyou...
Regards Paul
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