Posted By Stephen Boardman Hi Mark, quite right anyone can buy bleach off the shelf in any supermarket.... but once it comes into the workplace it needs to be treated differently. What you need to do is get a Material Safety Data Sheet from your supplier and then carry out a full COSHH assessment. If you can eliminate by substitution for a less hazardous product then that is the way you need to go (assuming the product can still do the job). If not then the old IITS (information, Instruction, Training and supervision) comes into play. It is never easy when you have a difference of opinion, but all you can do is give advice for both arguments and common sense should win through. Regards Steve

Posted By Zoe Barnett Personally I'd stick with the "no bleach" line. It's fine to offer cleaning staff better training etc but there's always the chance that one of them will forget the instructions/get their aunty to stand in for them at the last minute/bring in some appalling substance they've found in their shed. The potential harm warrants the absolute rule, in my book.

Posted By Ron Hunter Does your Organisation have an Environment Policy? Would this lend weight to your argument? Potential for inadvertant reaction with other products aside, I had no great qualms about use of bleach in our Organisation, until I found that we were getting thru' several thousand litres of the stuff every year - that can't be good for aquatic life! More environmentally friendly/ biodegradable products are worth investigating.

Posted By John Webster You might also like to look at the environmental aspects of using alternatives to Chlorine based bleaches. Most of the chemicals end up down the drain where Chlorine can inhibit the natural biological processes that break down waste, and combine with organic matter to produce a whole range of un-natural chlorinated chemicals which eventually end up in our rivers and the sea. These are to varying extents toxic to marine life and some bio-accumulate. Many alternatives, for example, are based on peroxide, which delivers a form of oxygen rather than chlorine to provide the bleaching action, and degrades harmlessly to water and oxygen.

Posted By Nicola Malpas Mike - I work for a contract facilities group and we banned the use of bleach for domestic cleaning activities at our client site approximately one year ago. There was some resistance initially as the staff believed no other products did the job as well as bleach and had been using it for 20 years plus with no accidents. However we've now implemented a new toilet cleaner and descaler which has proved successful. It was a perception thing really - just because people associate the smell of bleach with clean, doesn't always mean it's the only product for the job. Yes, it's great for reducing micro counts but there are alternatives out there, especially those designed for food industry use, where bleach cannot be used for product taint reasons.

Posted By Jeff Manion Has bleach or the lack of bleach been part of the cause or MRSA in hospitals or it that use low "strenght" or "grade" bleach? JM

Posted By Ron Impey That's equally true of many infections. I was recently in hospital and was appalled by the standards of hygiene, including medical practitioners not washing their hands between patients, or just rinsing their hands very quickly, then instead of using the food pedal to open the lid on the waste bin, they opened it manually. I noticed this as I was a microbiologist before joining the blessed profession. I have some good hand hygiene posters that can be e-mailed to anyone interested.

Posted By Mike Craven Many thanks for the responses so far folks - your comments and views are much appreciated. Just to pick-up on a couple of points, I am aware of the requirements under COSHH (and under HASAW '74 and the Management Regs, etc). I also fully understand that there is a clear difference between domestic and workplace use, and am aware that there are products readily available in B&Q and supermarkets that many employers wouldn't dream of allowing into the workplace. The Facilities Manager has carried out the assessment and come to the conclusion that the use of bleach should be banned and a safer alternative used. The problem is that the Cleaning Manager doesn't agree with the results of the assessment (claiming that "everyone else uses bleach" and the "alternative products aren't appropriate substitutes because they don't work"). The advice and info some of you have given on what bleach is/can/does/doesn't do will be particularly useful. What I was particularly interested in when posting this thread was to hear of cases where an assessment had been carried out and a decision made on whether or not to ban it's use in the workplace. The big problem with this one is that whilst the two parties don't particularly get on with each other, they both seem to like me! For a moment, I almost felt important as the two rivals took a step back and, in agreement with the Purchasing Manager (who also seems to like me!!), agreed that they weren't getting anywhere and said - "its your call Mike, we'll abide by your decision - crafty b---ers nearly got me to nake one!!!! Things were much easier when I was a trade union official, most managers detested me, and I could wallow in my self-unpopularity!!!!!!!!!!! Best wishes Mike

Posted By Richard Apps should read No hazard not to!! happy christmas

Posted By Ron Impey Hi Richard, What were they? I certainly concur with the above comments on HF. Even in weak solutions it penetrates flesh without disassociating, destroying joints and bones. Also very toxic. I once had to arrange the removal of a container from the workshop of a 'special school' where none of the staff were aware of what is was, never mind the specialised procedures for dealing with burns and spillages. When I worked in a sewage works lab I used to use boiling HNO3 and H2SO4 quite casually, (digesting sludge, trade waste and sludge samples) but kept well, well away from some ancient HF we had in store. The strange thing was we didn't even use it.