Posted By Broderick Paul I am after some advice re the applicability of CDM. I am an advisor working for a Local Authority, so the HSE rather than the Local Authority is the enforcing authority. We are putting our Facilities Management out to a contractor, where a single contractor will carry out all planned maintenance and responsive repares for a period of a few years. The contract will be for all our work premises and sites (over a hundred) but not residential properties. It will involve more than five staff etc, but as this is maintenance and repairs (including some big jobs) rather than a planned build, should the whole project/contract be subject to CDM? I would seriously appreciate other people's views as I'm confused Thanks Brod

Posted By Broderick Paul David, thanks, I think the bit you are referring to is the enforcing authority and if we were a small business the local authority would be the enforcing authority and CDM would probably not apply (perhaps). But because we are a Council, our enforcing authority is the HSE (we can't enforce on ourselves). therefore the question is whether maintenance work carried out by a contractor on a range of buildings over a number of years and employing quite a few staff counts as a CDM project. It doesn't appear logical to me, but when did logic or common sense ever enter the equation?

Posted By Robert K Lewis I think I will go against the flow here and place the contract under the ambit of a CDM regulated contract. There are some disadvantages as client but these are small compared with the ability to use the Management Plan, or as some might say the Construction Phase H&S plan, to assess the abilities and approaches of the tendering companies. It will also give something to measure their performance against. You would also have the ability to put in place local client rules as the needs arise -due to the wording of CDM these will have to be adopted by the PC and arguments that they were not in the original contract can normally be avoided. Having worked in LA, I realise that it is all too easy to overlook H&S matters for peripatetic workers, as has been witnessed by various threads on this forum. The planning of the contractor will give both confidence in his ability to manage these type of works and satisfy the responsibilities and duties you owe to building occupiers and visitors. Bob

Posted By ken mosley Paul, For what it is worth, my opinion is that in the circumstances you describe the CDM regs are applicable. In reg 2 and HSG224 construction work has various descriptions including what could be called facilities management: "Repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance (including cleaning which involves the use of water)". That sounds like FM to me. Having undertaken facilities management contracts in the past, in most cases though not all, we have been appointed PC.

Posted By Stephen Boardman Yes Mark, well spotted miss spell on my part >500 man days not hours. however do you have anything constructive to add to the thread?

Posted By Mark Talbot I totally agree with Dave that CDM does not apply to the overall situation, but as others have already said, it could apply to a particular project within. Another writer says that it would be usefull if it did apply ... well, yes, it might be. The fact that the law doesn't require it, does not stop you from applying it if you wanted - but the vendors will look at you gone out, and then add naughts to the price. You pays yer price and you takes yer safety plan!

Posted By Robert K Lewis As Ken rightly points out the FM type situations have been around a long time and almost invariably I find the best option is to notify the contract as a project to undertake a specific scope of work, to an outline programme or list of premises during the contract period. This is precisely the terms of the notification to the home HSE ofice that I, and I suspect Ken has made over the years. The crux of the problem is the little job that becomes bigger and runs into the notification needs and is overlooked until the inevitable happens. FM companies do not simply add the noughts. Any well managed FM company is doing sufficient within its systems to satisfy most CDM duties in any case. Without the overall notification you will need toput in place the backstop to monitor no job is transgressing the time or other conditions - Now I can add the zeros for 1, 2 or 3 inspectors trundling round the premises and auditing the jobs. Bob

Posted By Dave Wilson Dont think anyone was advocating that, the specific question was does CDM apply? and the answer is NO! If you wish to apply the principles of CDM etc then great that can only be of a safety benefit.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Mark The precise answer to whether CDM applies in a given case depends on how and what the contract defines as the project. I have not seen the contract but am saying that it is perfectly possible to go down the CDM route and not cost extra zeros. I do find myself worrying sometimes that there is the urge to find a way around the legislation and not manage a path through it. If the HSE thoughts come to be on the revised CHSWR and CDM, with the two sets combined as in such as Irish Rep. then the distinctions could be even more irrelevant. All CDM does is to set a framework for good sound management of construction work, yet the industry, or elements of it tend to view it as a bogeyman threatening the heart of our profit making venture. In a well managed organisation with a strong corporate governance structure safety is part of the business environment that has to be managed and it is the area where time and effort needs to be devoted. An industry which succeeds in killing an average of 80-100 operatives per year more than any other needs some fresh managment ideas to lift it out of the doldrums. We see criticisms of the attempts to use such as the Dupont STOP process, which can become over bureaucratised, as causing an army of spies but, and it is a big BUT, we are all responsible for the safety of ourselves and others - STOP et al. merely reinforce this understanding and try to bring a sense of safety ownership to all. Bob