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Posted By moshe Dyan
As can be expected during this weather, complaints of 'I'm too hot' are replacing 'it's too cold'.
WHSWR gives no upper limit but states comfortable. How do we define comfortable. The question has been raised by a neighbough who works in a private sports centre (previously council run so on the large side). She works in the cafe bar of the swimmig pool. so also has the additional heat from boilers for hot drinks and food hot plates. The cafe area has one door leading to the outside (Fire Door) which they have open, no air conditioning and the swimming pool has no windows just extraction fans.
She works a 8 hour shift and suggested a couple of additional breaks so they could go outside. As their breaks are paid the company stated a categoric no! There are no thermometers supplied but one which was taken into the cafe area today showed 33'.
Is there an upper limit?
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Posted By stevehaigh
There should be a supplied thermometer, there is no upper limit, but the temp should be comfortable to work in and therefore the employer should do all in their power to find a solution. REGULAR COOL DRINKS , SMALL BREAKS AND AIR CONDITIONING, should be utilised. AIR CONDITIONING units can be bought for under £200
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Posted By John-Mark
I always understood that the World Health Organisation's recommendation of a maximum 24 C was accepted as comfortable. My colleagues in the food safety side of things tell me that anything under 25 C is acceptable, which is sort of the same thing.
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Posted By Dave Dowan
Hi Moshe
Read "Themal Comfort in the Workplace HS(G) 194
Which states
How to assess thermal comfort
9 You cannot simply 'measure' thermal comfort with a thermometer. For example, a normal or 'dry-bulb' thermometer in a workplace may read 21°C (70°F) but if humidity is high, people are likely to feel uncomfortable unless some form of air-cooling or ventilation is provided.
10 An acceptable zone of thermal comfort for most people in the UK lies roughly between 13°C (56°F) and 30°C (86°F), with acceptable temperatures for more strenuous work activities concentrated towards the bottom end of the range, and more sedentary activities towards the higher end.
11 One method for assessing thermal comfort, which takes account of different environmental and individual factors, uses an EFFECTIVE TEMPERATURE scale. This seeks to combine the effects of air temperature, humidity and air movement into a single measurement. This gives a better approximation of the temperatures which people in the workplace are likely to feel. In general, effective temperatures will be 1°C (2°F) to 3°C (6°F) lower than the air temperature. This, like other methods, seeks to define a THERMAL COMFORT ZONE where a majority of people will feel reasonably comfortable. The thermal comfort zone will vary from workplace to workplace, depending on the environmental and individual factors.
Hope this Helps Dave
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Posted By Brian Kane
this is an interesting subject to me as I am a steel worker who is involved in the continuous casting process. During hot spells, we work in high temperatures and obviously we sweat a lot. Our employer needs to take a look at themselves and introduce more frequent rest breaks.
Brian
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Posted By Paul Bellis
Section 1 (Environmental criteria for design) of CIBSE Guide A: Environmental design, suggests for offices that the temperature range for comfort should be 21-23ºC in winter and 22-24 ºC in summer. The latter range applies to air conditioned buildings. Higher temperatures may be acceptable in non-air conditioned buildings.
Paul
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
At one point, if my memory is correct, the TUC were wanting a top temp of 30C. Didn't happen though.
Regular more frequent breaks is the answer to how employees 'reasonably' feel. That's what i've always recommended especially in areas where more physical work is being carried out e.g. cleaning water reservoirs (the partially underground ones)
Be careful about outside door open into cooking area, it needs to be protected against flies etc.
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Posted By Descarte
CIBSE guidance is guidance non enforcable, as stated there is no upper limit.
However for the gentleman working in the steel industry depending on the WBGTi there is guidance as well on regularity of breaks, having worked in the oil industry in the past I have dealt with very high working temperatures above 60 Deg C. Over 30 Deg C with moderate to Heavy working conditions and including PPE I cannot find the guidance at the moment but 45 minutes work to 15 minutes rest may be appropriate.
Also it is essential you can provide cool places of rest close to the work area and obvioulsy a supply of cool drinking water.
Hope this helps
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Posted By John-Mark
Yes, that's right about the TUC. I think they are still pushing for the upper limit, to no avail as yet.
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Posted By moshe Dyan
Thanks all for your answers, e-mails and suggestions which I have passed to my neighbough.
Several aspects that I was not aware of so will also be studying all replies.
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Posted By hse.leon
we do have upper limit ,Which is 51°C in the Middle east (U.A.E).
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Posted By Lumpy
Yeah I know ... lets all buy air con and kill the plannet !!!!
Whilst sitting at a desk in 33 degree heat may be uncomfortable, it is not a significant risk to healthy adults. Please be reasonable about this. Your risk assessment must take into consideration the work undertaken, and the risk to the individuals.
In hot weather we give employees the option to come in, and go home early, thus avoiding the hottest part of the day. We also provide cold drinks and "cool down" breaks for those undertaking physical tasks.
The moment you get air con units, you will need to arrange and manage regular maintenance / inspections, storage, cleaning etc etc. So it's not just the £200 to buy the thing.
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
The comments about foundaries and working temperatures in the UAE certainly lend a bit of perspective to the situation, but I fear would go down like a lead balloon in the office!
What I want to know is where do the WHO get their figure of 24 °C from, as quoted by John-Mark and why is this at variance with the HSE guidance HS(G) 194 which is quoted by Dave Dowan as 30 °C for sedentary work?
Am I correct to assume that the HSE guidance takes precedence over the WHO guidance in the UK?
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Posted By Descarte
Unfortunately in most admin roles poeple have to work cores hours and are unable to come in early and go home before it gets hot 12noon? (means starting at 04:00am for an 8 hour day) And in our office there seems to be an abundance of pregant women - must be something in the water, apart from a specific individual risk assessment (which we have done) are there any further guidelines for comfort if you are with child?
On a seperate note I seem to remember seeing CIBSE or HSE (cant remember which) saying that during hot weather air circulation should be increased and
---->humidity should be below 60%<----
?¿?
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Posted By Lumpy
If you keep blinds closed etc, there will be a time lag between the hottest part of the day outside and the hottest part of the day inside. Monitor your temperature and I'll bet your offices reach a temperature peak after 4pm. We allow people to come it at 7am instead of 9am, this allows them to leave just before the temp peaks.
That said, most employees are not able to come in early due to other commitments (school run etc), but at least we have done something.
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Posted By Jon Bradburn
Much as I would like to agree with lumpy and post about other industries / foreign part I cannot. I doubt for one any court - unfortunately - would put the defense of the planet above a contributory cause of an accident and I doubt any claims lawyer would give it a second thought.
In my eyes the general feeling is one of an employer who cant see the problem - I know this form personal experience. The regs state a 'reasonable' temperature and we could argue all day. Fact is higher temeperatures (and the other factors) lead to stress, reduced output and lethargy - at 31 degrees I am falling alseep as I type.
Moshe's post was not related to an office but a cafe / bar. Lack of concentration here could have severe implications not least scalding. WHSWR regulation 7(3) - a thermometer SHALL be provided. The post suggests even this was not a straight forward task.
Those industry with constant 'real' heat issues are generally better placed to deal with them through the various means (refuges, breaks, cool water etc )
It is the businesses where it is a transient summer problem that are at risk, too many employers take the attitude of dragging heals, then summer is over and its forgotten until the next heatwave - in ten years time! This is no longer the case and employers will have to take more than a cursory look at the problem.
That said I wish I had the powers of persuasion solve my own problem
Jon
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Moshe,
Back to the question you raised:
Yes, the Workplace Regs state that thermometers should be made available in the workplace (though staff may need to ask around to find it.)
There is no legal upper limit, but as Dave Dowan suggests the guidance note does give figures and states that lower temperatures would be needed for strenuous activity.
From personal experience, I would describe kitchen work as fairly strenuous activity, which in addition is completed in an area of high humidity.
As such, I would suggest maximum ventilation be used (without wedging open the fire doors or fly screens) and extra breaks during the hot spell would not be unreasonable.
Perhaps the management therefore need to reconsider their position and be a bit more flexible during the hot spell.
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Posted By Clairey O
Having always worked in the sports centre environment, high temps in summer are not unusual. They are however difficult to control. The average swimming pool has a water temp of between 27-30 degrees depending on the type of clientel they have. In order for their swimming experience to be reasonable the air temp will need to be higher than the water temp by roughly 1 degree. If not the swimmers will feel cold. When you take into accout that most pools either have glass roofs or wall, you are looking at poolside temps rising in the summer. That unfortuntely is the nature of the beast, and almost impossible to change...
But, regular breaks, extraction facilities, free refreshments, cool rooms all provide a coping method for the short time that we have summer.
If the cafe/bar that Moshe's friend works in is within the pool hall than her problems will be exacarbated by the pool hall humidity, if it is separate then it should be able to be controlled.
Recommend a job swap so the managers get an idea of the working environment. Many years ago as lifeguards it worked for us, after a really busy summers day with temps in the high 30's,all of a sudden we were allowed to take drinks on poolside, and rotation times were cut by in half.
Oh, i remember those days well........
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