Posted By jom This model is appearing everywhere. It is a stupid model. It must be possible to produce something better than cheese to explain accidents. John.

Posted By jom J. Yep, I'll go with that. Stuffed goose explodes. That's better than swiss cheese. J.

Posted By Robert K Lewis Good question for a Friday. I think that the reason Prof Reason, excuse me but it reminds me that Detective Sergeant Constable once arrested Mick Jagger, is that he is trying to impart the idea that a random set of holes, events, might line up at any time and thus produce a line to a failure event. Producing models such that we can visualise what is happening is often the key to the acceptance and understanding of a concept. In many ways it is not really different to a root cause analysis model which seeks to drill down through the various factors to the management system failures at the end of the tunnel. Would you remember it if it wasn't for the cheese? Hale and Hale's model tried to descibe the same type of process many years ago now but it is hard to visualise the nuances of it without a prompt. Bob

Posted By steven bentham For those who have not read his books, they are by far the best on the block with very easy thinking for difficult concepts.

Posted By Merv Newman Jim Reason retired at least five years ago so I doubt he watches this chat show. I always thought that the swiss cheese model was a bit tenuous. You'd have to slice the cheese fairly thin (ie fewer and fewer chances of obstruction, or of prevention) to see daylight from one side to the other. I prefer the various "domino" models where, in sequence, strategic, tactical, operational, behavioural and defensive measures all have to fail before there is an accident. (that's a bit simplistic but ok for saturday evening) The strategic level represents the board of directors, "Behavioural" is the exposed employee and "Defensive" represents safety precautions such as guarding, PPE or training. Following from this model, behaviouralists try to implant "safe" behaviours which are intended to compensate for latent errors caused by the higher levels. Does that smell any better ? Merv

Posted By Raymond Rapp Whether Reason's Swiss Cheese model is a good analogy is a matter of conjecture. It is the concept that is important. However, it does leave a lasting impression on what is essentially a visual concatenation of events. There are of course other analogous examples such as the domino effect and Turner's 'trigger event'. One should not get bogged down with descriptive examples. After all, there are many others that annoy me. For example, the Heinrich, Bird pyramid showing death and injury rates has been plagiarised for all and sundry. Regards Ray

Posted By Nigel Hammond Great subject for a thread. I'm not sure I agree with you - as I think diagrams are great and words are boring. I doubt if Einstein was particularlty thinking in words when he came up with his theory of relativity. Even if such diagrams do over-simplify they provide a good starting point to get your head round concepts and maybe come up with an even better analogy. What really bugs me is the word 'model'. It has become such a management-speak word! Anyway, I've heard of the swiss cheese model but never seen it. Can anyone tell me where I can get a copy.

Posted By Nigel Hammond Thanks Phillip

Posted By jom Nigel wrote: >Great subject for a thread. I'm not sure I >agree with you - as I think diagrams are >great and words are boring. I love diagrams. Words can be boring and a diagram is a great trick to keep the interest alive. Diagrams are great for illustrating a point. But they are not the argument. That has to come through words. There's no choice about that. >Anyway, I've heard of the swiss cheese >model but never seen it. Can anyone tell >me where I can get a copy. No, you can't have a copy. Absolutely not. J.

Posted By Nigel Hammond I'm getting cheesed-off with this tread

Posted By Jonathan Breeze Jom Glad you liked the football analogy, I should write a paper on it and become rich, and famous, and take over the world Mwahaha! > "What's a Rooney?" He's a local football star famed for his looks and devastating striking ability. Not popular round our way since he left to play for the enemy (Man Utd). Also plays for England. I wouldn't worry too much about the cricket mate, you have history on your side on that one! Another way to think about about accident causation if you are an engineer is as logic gates. The accident only occurs if a series of predetermined conditions are met. I still prefer the Swiss Cheese model though where the holes represent management, process or procedural failures, although John Knights pate de foi gras model also appeals... Mmm food! Nigel wrote: >"I doubt if Einstein was particularlty thinking in words when he came up with his theory of relativity. " As far as I am concerned any one with a predilection for rubber sheets needs therapy, not a Nobel prize!