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#1 Posted : 06 September 2005 17:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By James Perry Hello all, I wonder if any of you could help with this one. I've an employee who is signed off with stress at the moment (and being paid at SSP). I have a sneaky suspicion that he may be driving for an agency whilst signed off sick. I also think that he may have been doing this on his rest days while working for us and that it has contributed to his sickness. Does the other employer (if asked), have any obligation to report the hours that someone works/has worked to that persons main employer? In addition, under the Work Time Regs and HASAW, Management regs, where does our duty of care stop if he is putting himself at risk with the hours he's working? Any advice would be appreciated. Regards Jim
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#2 Posted : 06 September 2005 18:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By David P. Johnson I would suggest you contact the ACAS helpine, they will be able to advise on the situation as a ponit of law.
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#3 Posted : 07 September 2005 08:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kieran J Duignan James I wonder whether you misunderstand the legal status of a doctor's certificate? When you write 'signed off with stress', I understand that you mean that your employee's g.p. has authorised him to claim SSP on the grounds of stress. Please consider the following matters: 1. The legal basis of a doctor's certificate does not actually entitle your employee to withdraw from the labour force. 2. Very, very few g.p's have indepth expertise about stress. 3. You can authorise an Assessment of Fitness for Work from a chartered occupational psychologist (especially if s/he is also a qualified counsellor and registered safety practitioner) that has much stronger legal statute in relation to fitness for work than the g.p's assessment. 4. Failure of the employee to make himself available for such an assessment could amount to breach of contract, depending on the terms of his contract of employment I offer this perspective after workin as a chartered occupational psychologist (and qualified counsellor and registered safety practitioner) who has worked with one of the UK's leading occupational physicians (now head of Civilian Medicine in the MoD). A Fellow of the Faculty of Occupational Medicine; while very, very supportive of ill or injured employees, he was equally radical in the actions he took to expose malingerers and prvent them exploiting his employer.
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#4 Posted : 07 September 2005 16:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Frank Hallett Hi Jim, 1st, let me say that I consider Keirans comments are extremely pertinant! 2nd, you don't identify what the individuals job is for you. There is an assumption that they drive for you, but it needs to be confirmed before making any statements based upon the information given. If they do drive, is it the same sort of driving? Day-work, shift, spread shift etc? Assuming that you are the individuals principal employer, and that they aren't self-employed or agency; the onus is upon you to prove the assertions that you make and also to identify, rectify and subsequently manage the causes of the alleged stress. Incidentally, somewhere in your Contracts of Employment you should have some clauses that deal with work activities outside of your undertaking and how you require the employee to inform you of such activity and how you will impose conditions to ensure that your activities aren't unduly put at risk. Frank Hallett
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#5 Posted : 08 September 2005 14:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Lorraine Shuker "The legal basis of a doctor's certificate does not actually entitle your employee to withdraw from the labour force." Doesn't the MED3 state "I advise that you refrain from work for ........"?? I'm confused? On the issue of second jobs your contract of employment should read that before commencing any other paid work they must seek the company's permission in writing or words to that effect.
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#6 Posted : 08 September 2005 17:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kieran J Duignan In relation to Lorraine's profession 'I'm confused'..... That's a healthy response, Lorraine: you're in touch with reality! The situation is confusing till you say, 'What sort of evidence are we talking about?' Right, we start with that fact that the g.p. advises on the basis of his medical knowledge. James, or another employer's agent, has reason to question the validity of the g.p.'s advice - but unless he does so on the basis of, read my words carefully, scientifically-defensible evidence, he's on a hiding to, well, loadsa trouble. While there are no absolutes here, I've already indicated one major source of learning by observing a medic with expertise in occupational medicine far, far beyond that of your 'normal' g.p. Interestingly, this guy was very chary about assessing stress and prefered to follow the guidance of chartered psychologists. My own confidence in my methodology is based on feedback from courts. On one occasion I was cross-examined about my evidence in a case involving an intricate case involving occupational stress, the court report stated: 'Mr Duignan's mastery and expertise were self-evident...' and similar observations. This week, my evidence to a court in the USA was accepted without reservation, probably (in my opinion) because I included a clear explanation of the methods used and a rationale for the assessment and recommendations. It's not all smoke and mirrors. Honest.
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