Posted By Cr8r Dear asbestos experts We have had a survey which identifies asbestos in some of our toilet cisterns. This has amazed me as I didn't previously realise it was used in these. I wonder if the experts amongst you would know how an asbestos surveyor would have known that asbestos is present in these particular cisterns. They are in good "as new" condition. Out estates manager now wants them removed so that they don't continually feature in the register and cause any future problems. If asbestos was used in the cisterns, what was the point of this and was it used in the pan bit of the loo as well (sorry don't know the technical name!)? Also, we've got loads of conveniences here; what would make one particular set have asbestos whilst others are ok? Was it a particular vintage? Yours puzzled (and with nothing to go on!).

Posted By Ron Hunter Yes, asbestos fibres have been used in the older black plastic type cisterns and lids. You will no doubt appreciate that the risk arising is negligible(unless of course this is a school, and the pupils start to carve their names in them - this does happen),and it is doubtful if the content would qualify these as special waste when they are disposed of. The asbestos surveyor has either taken a sample, or else will have reported a 'presumption' of asbestos fibres being present.

Posted By Ken Taylor Almost certainly the black plastic cisterns with asbestos fibres bound up in the plastic. The surveyor will have known the make and models involved. No real risk unless someone uses a power tool on them. The usual recommendation is for management - with no question of the need for removal.

Posted By Cr8r Thank you so much for your quick responses. I've learned something today! The loos in question are not the black type, they are modern looking white ceramic ones. I initially thought that it was the pipes but apparently it is the cisterns themselves. The surveyor did not to my knowledge take any samples so it may be that it is something inside the cisterns as one of you has suggested. I can't think otherwise what has singled these particular toiles out. I have told the estates manager that he can leave it alone, as it is all intact and is not posing a risk at all but he has his mind set on removing them anyway! I do realise about the haz waste implications but not sure if he does, so I'll remind him! Thank you all so much for your very helpful comments.

Posted By Ron Young There's a clue in the second line of the post

Posted By roidstar The survey should state whether this material has been presumed to contain asbestos or identified by sample analysis. If it's a new type ceramic cistern then these do not contain asbestos. The surveyor may have been over cautious with his presumptions. You should seek clarification from the survey company.

Posted By Ken Taylor Personally I wouldn't go to the bother of taking samples from a cistern of a type and make known to have contained asbestos. It is sufficient to record that it is presumed (or strongly presumed) to contain asbestos, to be of low risk and will be robustly managed.

Posted By Cr8r To clarify, I haven't seen the actual document, but the estates manager told me that the cisterns were identified as containing chrysotile - so this probably confuses things further. When I say "loos" I mean the whole set up - the pot, the seat, the lid and the cistern! Sorry I'm not toiletly technical. The cistern to my limited understanding is the oblong bit that holds the water for flushing! The offending toilets are white ceramic bowl, white ceramic cistern (including cistern lid) and white some sort of plastic seat & lid. My thoughts are that the surveyor has had reason to make an assumption that there may be asbestos present - I don't have any problem with this, I'm just concerned that with the estate manager wanting them ripped out, what's to say that these loos are any different from all the other banks of toilets in other buildings? Thanks for all your thoughts and helpful comments though.

Posted By Fran Holt Cr8r, for someone who is not very technically minded you aren't doing badly for someone with a fork lift license, what appears to be a good understanding of health and safety and law. you may not be able to park very well, but i am sure even you can work out the bits of a toilet! can you email me directly please?!! thanks

Posted By Adrian Watson Dear All, Asbestos was added to phenolic plastics as a means of strengthening the material. There is no risk to health and the material is not a hazardous waste. The new The Hazardous Waste (England and Wales)Regulations 2005 define hazardous waste by reference to The List of Wastes (England) Regulations 2005. Regulation 3 of these regulations states: (6) Subject to paragraph (7), a waste marked with an asterisk in the List of Wastes is considered listed in the List of Wastes as a hazardous waste for the purposes of regulation 6(a) of the Hazardous Waste Regulations. Construction containing asbestos wastes is listed as: 17 06 05* construction materials containing asbestos M (7) Where a waste marked with an asterisk in the List of Wastes comprises or contains one or more dangerous substances, it is considered a hazardous waste - (a) …[not relevant in this case] (b) where a waste is identified as hazardous by a specific or general reference (howsoever expressed) to dangerous substances, if the concentrations of those substances are such (that is, percentage by weight) that the waste – (i) presents one or more of the hazardous properties; and (ii) in the case of any of the hazardous properties H3 to H8, H10 or H11, satisfies the requirements of regulation 4. Regulation 4 states that: 4. Wastes satisfies the requirements of this regulation in respect of any of the properties H3 to H8, H10[21] and H11 of Annex III, where it displays one or more of the following characteristics – (i) one substance known to be carcinogenic of category 1 or 2 at a concentration equal to or greater than 0,1 %; [H7] Abestos is a class 1 carcinogen and these products contain more than 0.1% asbestos by weight. However, the asbestos is encapsulated within the waste and the waste is not carcinogenic. Therefore, whilst this waste fulfils the criteria of Regulation 3 (7) (b) (ii); it does not not meet the criteria detailed in Regulation 3 (7) (b) (i). It is therefore not hazardous waste. Regards Adrian Watson LLM MSc Dip Occ Hyg

Posted By steven bentham Having the misfortune to have read a number of survey reports they seem to be trained to find these. As for the practical value and the risk to anybody using, removing or disposing of these = 0 Check the building to make sure they have not missed all the AIB etc. Usually a bad sign when the report focuses on asbestos toilets.

Posted By Tony O'Keefe I have also been told that there is a small amount of asbestos in the toilet cisterns and seats in the composition of the bacolite type material used to manufacture them, if they are in good condition then just leave them as they are and monitor their condition because of the makeup of this type of product it would be next to impossible to inhale particles as it is not very friable when in good condition. though if you clean them with a hard wire brushes and sandpaper and inhale all the dusts produced you might possibly be asking for trouble. Jokes aside save your money for more important issues.