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#1 Posted : 21 November 2005 10:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Lynne Ratcliffe
Opinions please:
There are two schools of thought that appear to be in play with regards to the treatment of icy paths, roads and walkways.
One is to leave untreated and let all persons be responsible for their own actions (falls etc)
The other is to treat paths, roads and walkways offering a potentially safer passage to pedestrians and vehicles alike.

Please can anyone confirm which is the best method as I have both sides saying that theirs is the only solution as if we treat the paths and someone falls we are liable as we failed to treat adequately to ensure safe passage, the other side saying if we do not treat we are negligent in not doing anything to reduce the risk and are therefore liable.

Any suggestions with references if possible as this is going to be a hard nut to crack!
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#2 Posted : 21 November 2005 10:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By George Wedgwood
Lynne, my view is that a general risk assessment shows that there is a risk to pedestrians arriving at the undertaking, getting out of their cars and walking to their place of work. My solution is that there is a provision of salt grit close to the walkways and car park and someone with the responsibility to ensure that this is used before the surface becomes dangerous (hand spread or machine spread depending on the area). It is also necessary to inform employees that this system is in place and should they see the additional need, they should be able to dispense more grit themselves to help. I have this system in place at one of our regional offices and it works fine - it is even extended to the council pavement to ensure the main entrance is kept safe. Should someone subsequently trip or slip on the groitted surface, then it will be understood that everything reasonable had been done and employees/visitors should be aware of the increased risk in inclement weather. It may also be useful to post a notice warning of a gritted surface and possible exposed frosty bits!
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#3 Posted : 21 November 2005 11:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian Waldram
As a principle, how can taking action to reduce risk from a hazard the organisation has identified increase the overall risk, rather than reduce it! Answer - only if you do something grossly incompetent, which if you are able to identify the hazard in the first place, seems unlikely. Those who advise you to do nothing are in fact suggesting that any controls you introduce will inevitably increase the risk - do they apply that philosophy to all hazards, or just slipping on ice?
George's suggestions seem very practical, though like all other controls, they cannot reduce the risk to zero - to do that you will have to move your operations to somewhere there is no ice in winter (and then you will probably be subject to different, but equally serious, weather-related hazards!)
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#4 Posted : 21 November 2005 11:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Lynne,

Don't think about liability; think about duty of care. If you control a path you have a duty of care to anybody who might use it, especially if they are invited to use it. How will you discharge your duty of care if the path is icy? Do what is reasonably practicable and you will have discharged your duty of care,

John
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#5 Posted : 21 November 2005 11:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Brian Hagyard
Lynne.

Check out the ACOP on Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992. Regulation 12 is to do with the conditions of floor and traffic routes. ACOP paragraph 96 states, “Arrangements should be made to minimise risks from snow and ice. This may involve gritting, snow clearing and closure of some routes, particularly outside stairs, ladders and walkways on roofs.”

I take that to mean that doing nothing is not an option, that one of those urban myths. I would agree with George, check your risk assessments and essential paths for access from car parks etc must be gritted.

Brian.
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#6 Posted : 21 November 2005 19:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Red Ones
In addition to the ACOP, the HASAWA also refers to the need for an employer to provide safe access and egress to a place of work. I seem to remember, though, that case law states that car parks in themselves are not covered by the HASAWA.
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#7 Posted : 21 November 2005 20:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Crim
Why do people worry about carrying out actions that are intended to make conditions safer. If we are conciencious enough to ensure a proper job is completed every time there would be no need to consider anything other than spreading the grit on an icy surface. You could also consider posting "Danger Slip Hazard" notices as well but there is always the chance that someone would trip over them, (it could go on for ever.........) We have a duty of care and so do the workforce (Sec.s 7 & 8 HASAWA)!
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#8 Posted : 21 November 2005 21:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Barry Cooper
Hi Lynne
No question, gritting the paths is the right choice. If someone slips then you should be able to demonstrate you have done everything reasonably practicable.
If you arrange for an employee to do the task, then give him the correct equipment (not just a bag of grit and a shovel), train him in the job and ensure he is competent to do the job, highlighting the hazards of the job, not just the slippery surface.
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#9 Posted : 21 November 2005 21:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By TBC
See thread

www.iosh.co.uk/index.cfm...view&Forum=1&Thread=1477

for more info.
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#10 Posted : 22 November 2005 09:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Nina
I'm fairly new to Health and Safety but I noticed our path outside our office was like an ice rink and promptly gritted it, surely if someone slips on it we would be sued for negligence? and besides the legal side, it just seemed the right thing to do!!
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#11 Posted : 22 November 2005 10:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By JAI
i agree with neena "it seemed the right thing to do"

The other point we grit our paths and car park but one morning the guy who always put down the grit was late due to severe weather, you guessed it one early bird arrived before him slipped and guess what we now have a claim going through

talk about rubbing salt in the wounds

We all have a duty to provide a safe place of work
look at latimer v. AEC ltd for some guidance
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#12 Posted : 22 November 2005 21:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler
Lynne,
Please refer to Occupirers Liability Insurance, can you afford not to?
AFARP CBA and many other issues.
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#13 Posted : 23 November 2005 10:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Nigel Evans
There seems to be a lot of people saying it's right to grit the paths but who says it is? Albeit you say it's being done with good intention thats no excuse for incompetence. If you make the situation worse how can you justify it?

Particulaly where one respondent has stated that they are clearing the public pathway (this is the duty of the local authority as I recall).

If I was to slip over and break my leg as a result of someones misguided attempts to clear ice etc I would certainly not be happy. I used to have a very good legal paper on this very subject, very good discussion on the the various case law I'll have to see if I can find it. A friend of mine has just started a business offering to do this work for clients but couldn't get insurance.
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#14 Posted : 23 November 2005 12:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Nick House
Something to remember also - gritting already frozen/ slippery areas is unlikely to do any good in the short term (it might even make matters worse). The key is to grit BEFORE the aea freezes...
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#15 Posted : 24 November 2005 09:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By JAI
To me the risk of a slip,trip or fall this time of year is foreseeable so like above me must put prevention measures in place and maintain them

Question to ponder

we own the land opposite our site and it is used as a car park but to get to work you have to use a public foot path, do we grit the car park and forget about the public foot path?

jai
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#16 Posted : 24 November 2005 09:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Cathy Ricketts
Refer to case: Gitsham v C H Pearce and Sons Ltd (31 January 1991) Court of Appeal (Times Law Reports, 11 Feb 1991) Employee slipped on ice and snow outside workplace - accident occured before employer operated his system to clear snow and ice - Court of Appeal held that an established and proper system for ensuring safe access for employees existed at the premises - the company had not breached its duty - the words reasonably practicable have to be borne in mind and whether the requirement has been met.
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#17 Posted : 29 November 2005 15:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Lynne Ratcliffe
So we reach the point on that icy road! Snow, thaw and freeze overnight sort of thaw today and sort of still freezing again now!

The paths, site roads, car parks etc have not been gritted or salted at all throughout the day. We now have the same rutted ice to cross (albiet wetter) to get to our cars in the dark.

There is still ambiguity as to whether or not the car park, the access route (ours and third party) that we have to cross to our other car park should or should not be treated.

Are there any more words of wisdom that can be added to our cause?

To grit or not to grit is the essential question . . . with apparently no definitive answer available.

Thanks for your help so far but this still seems to be a hard nut waiting to be cracked on the ice!!!!!!!!!!
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#18 Posted : 29 November 2005 21:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Barry Cooper
Lynne
On our site we call in a contractor to grit whenever the weather forecast states it will be frosty or icy and the temperature drops below 3degC our security personnel make the call. We very rarely get it wrong by not gritting, but several times we have gritted and it may not have needed it. Our contractor is also involved in the decision making.
I believe this is the right thing to do to avoid accidents and subsequent injury, if we grit when not necessary what's a bit more grit.
Touch wood, over the last 10 years we haven't had an accident due to snow and ice, so I don't believe we have got it wrong. If we do have an accident then I feel we have done everything reasonably practicable.
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#19 Posted : 29 November 2005 21:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rob Wright
Lynne, there's a lot of wise words spoken by the respondents. My view is we take a step back from all the statutory detail, and consider what is reasonable in the circumstances. The last Court of Appeal judgement was Gitsham v. C. H. Pearce & Sons Plc [1991] where it was said that an employer has to make all reasonable attempts to remove or neutralise the effects of ice in order for it to discharge its common law duty of care and statutory obligations - so you have to try your best in the circumstances, where snow and ice fall in areas under your control - but this doesn't mean you must have a perfect system.
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#20 Posted : 30 November 2005 13:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mark Talbot
I know we are all safety bods, but look at it the other way ... How will your business continue if half your staff are laid up with twisted ankles, broken legs, etc? [worse still one vital person like cook, tea maker or expenses clerk?]

Keep the access / egress safe so that people can populate, use and interact with your business. Otherwise why are we all getting out of bed every day?

Do as much as you reasonably can and make note of its effectiveness - maybe you need to do it earlier / later / more frequently.

Oh, and I think you will find that the LA only has to keep the main roads clear, not side roads, and most certainly not pavements ... they do that only if you hassle, them in my experience.
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#21 Posted : 28 December 2005 18:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Graham Bullough
Here are some other aspects to think about regarding this thread: As well as having a known order of priorities for treating paths and other areas (like highway authorities do for roads) it's important to check the arrangements for the people who actually spread the salt/grit, often alone and during freezing cold and dark conditions in the early morning: As well as having suitable trolleys to carry and spread salt, especially if they have significant areas to treat, have they got warm clothing, headtorches (so as to leave both hands free) and suitable footwear? By suitable footwear I mean boots or shoes with a rugged tread so as to minimise the likelihood of injury through slipping. Ideally, such footwear should have metal studs so as to gain some bite on icy surfaces. This begs a further question: Does anyone know of any sources of such footwear? Given that postal delivery workers have to negotiate all sorts of surfaces, including icy or mossy drives and paths, what sort of footwear are they given?

Another option is to use over-shoes with such studs, but they do not appear to be readily available in the UK. However, I hope others can enlighten us about studded footwear and studded over-shoes, preferably ones which can be worn indoors without gouging carpets and damaging fancy floors. Therefore, please don’t bother telling us about football boots with long studs or spiked running shoes. As for instep crampons (i.e. small devices which fit under the arches of walking boots and intended for intermittent use by hillwalkers) the spikes are too long and there’s too much hassle and time spent putting them on and taking them off – which is why they were never successful for people operating mowers on steep slopes.

In Northern Europe overshoes seem to be available and used for icy conditions, especially by older people, where routine removal of ice and snow from pavements, etc. is not reasonably practicable. One of the snags of being in the UK is that we have weather, while High Alpine areas and North European countries have a climate: snow and ice arrive in late Autumn and remain, topped up by additional snowfalls, until the Spring melt. Drivers put snow tyres on their vehicles for the winter period and also add snow chains when appropriate. People have and use footwear appropriate to the conditions, especially where routine clearing of snow and gritting is not practicable or has low priority. In short, they simply adapt to winter conditions with PPE (or vehicular equivalents) and don’t let winter significantly hinder their lives. To some extent this happens in the UK: People and organisations in Northern Scotland tend to have reasonable arrangements for coping with snowfalls and freezing conditions. By contrast, a light sprinkling of snow in South East England seems to paralyse people and transport systems.

Unlike in places with real winter climates, winter temperatures in the UK fluctuate considerably above and around freezing point. Also, the average UK winter now appears to be milder with fewer and shorter spells of freezing weather. This may partly explain why this thread has been raised. A further factor comprises the increasing compensation culture in the UK: Too many people now have the mistaken impression that if anything goes wrong in their lives, there is always someone else who can be blamed and sued. Furthermore, this impression reinforces their notion that they have no need to take any responsibility for themselves and adapt/prepare for adverse conditions or situations.

A final thought: Many people in the UK are perturbed by snow when it arrives. They should actually be more worried, whether as pedestrians or motorists, about subsequent conditions which involve partial melting of snow and ice followed by a freeze which then leaves untreated roads and other outdoor surfaces with a smooth and treacherous icy layer.
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