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Posted By Sally Crowley
Good Morning
All site employees within our organisation posess the CCNSG Passport to Safety but a more recently acquired client, a major Quarrying company, require that our employees have the SPA Passport, can anyone tell me if it is possible to do the one day Quarrying portion of the second passport to convert the first? As an SME it doesn't exactly make financial sense to have to resend our employees on what is in essence the same course but if we only send selected employees to keep costs to a minimum it could lead to manpower issues & our not being able to meet our clients needs.
Thanks
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Posted By gham
ask spa
i doubt it they are very inflexable that way. Their course is better that anyone elses, type attitude
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Posted By Brett Day
It's this sort of thing that brings safety passport schemes into disrepute.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Yes they do, we have our guys with at least 5 safety cards each and depends on which industry will accespt what, all teach the same with a little bit of either, construction, manuafactiring, food, petro etc but as H&S consultants and Safety Managers charge for this AND DEMAND you have it they will not recognise the other.
Why not site specific induction, why shoul my employees be away from work where they could be earning good money and we are losing just to attend a 3 day repetition by some boring safet person which you get at least another 6 times a year, no wonder they get the attitude,'NOT another safety course!'
Its a con and a rip off as I could do the training but you have to use theirs!!!!
Just like CHAS, National Brittania Safecontractor, UvDB will not recognise each other but all ask for the samewhen doing checks of SMS, that said CHAS are really good and chep, run by the Government and the HSE but the other two will not accept CHAS as you have to pay them to get accredited another rip off!!! as CHAS is more indepth than theirs. and expect to get good money for it, how can you audit a SME SMS by Email??? and then charge £1500 for the priveledge??????????
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Posted By Frank Hallett
Hi Dave
I'm with you on this! If the content and standard is the same, then why can't there be equivalence? The current situation reinforces the perception that it's all nothing more than a revenue generation scheme for those who control the system - or their bit of it anyway.
It's no different for me in many cases either. I'm not so precious that I think that I know it all [I surely don't]; but I am competent at a level considerably higher than the general dross that passes for safety awareness training at visitor or employee level yet I'm expected to sit through that as well on occassion [usually without any form of confirmation of understanding incidentally].
The comment about "safety consultants" is one that some would react adversely to, but I know that you're right. All I can say is that the safety consultant should specify the minimum standard to be achieved and then step back. It's no different to the process where the quoted need for "NEBOSH Diploma" has [mostly] been replaced by a generic standard approach.
More power to you; a single industry standard is supposed to be gradually introduced for 2010 but I won't hold my breath nor lay any bets on it.
Frank Hallett
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Posted By gham
Dave
Thanks for that, i was going to produce that rant almost work for word but could not be bothered wasting my breath it is all a pure money making scam and some so called consultants jump on the band wagon they charge the client for doing all the work and then charge the contractor for the privedge of bing APPROVED.
I feel sorry for the guys I train and I get bored going over the same thing with the same people two or three times a year. This sort of thing is a farse and does no favours for any company in trying to promote a health and safety culture because your too busy chasing paper of going over core health and safety skills with the same ops over and over again, it makes you look a fool.
I could go on ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!..............
I think this thead may get hijaked
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Posted By steve e ashton
In October 2003, HSE guidance suggested:
HSE is encouraging organisations to work together so that one
scheme recognises the core training of other schemes. This means
that Passport holders do not have to repeat the core syllabus if they
move from one employer or contract to another, they will simply
need site specific training. If they stay in the same industry they
may not need to have further sector specific training. By producing
a suggested core syllabus, HSE and the Environment Agencies hope
to encourage more mutual recognition.
In some schemes arrangements have been made to recognise any
Passport which meets 80% of the suggested core syllabus and
which has been issued within the last two years."
Looks like their advice fell on deaf ears?
Steve
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Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Would the IOSH passport be any good?
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Any passport scheme would be good as long as it is recognised by all industries, if there was a half day / couple of hours on site specific hazards and risk fine! but to sit through the Sect 2 of H&SAW Act says this bla bla bla bla when is coffee and can I get out of here early!!
I am CMIOSH with over 20 years experience and was made to do a CSCS Operator test and was told that if I had a lower qualification I would be exempt but EHO, NEBOSH Dip, CMIOSH, SpDipEM had to do it! took 1m 43seconds and a morning out the office to get there and back etc etc and I have never ever ever been asked to produce it! what an absolute waste of time and the CITB make sonme dosh.
Thes passport schemes and SMS validation money spinner for someone! does it imprive safety? DOUBT IT! Does it reduce liability in the event of? probably as I told them so!! had all the training Guv!! What more can I do!
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Posted By Sally Crowley
Thanks for the lively debate. Personally I am not a H & S practitioner but as I seem to be responsible for the rest of our organisation's systems (HR Quality etc) & many of these are intrinsically linked with safety it helps to have a forum where I can ask. I must admit I had a wry smile to myself when the subject of the UVDB cropped up, probably the singular most poorly designed system I have ever had the misfortune to come across in my life. They haven't even got that right yet & now they are trying to encourage the Utilities to push their suppliers down the route of Verify?! At least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask when he was ripping people off.
Anyway I digress.... Looks like I am going to have to deal with some serious face pulling from the directors when I tell them that the training our lads have is not what the client wants.
Sally
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Just noticed my very poor use of the keyboard and spelling!!!!!!!! Too busy trying to get my rant in I suppose!!
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Rant rant rant rant.
Letter in the post etc
To stay on our approved suppliers list you will have to become UvDB verified or Chas or SafeContacor or whatever.
So I phone the 'helpline' or is this the 'rip off line'
You going to give us anywork over the next 12 months?
Dont know?
Then why should I spend in excess of £2.5 k to do this? and £600 a year to stay accredited / verified.
Well you wont be on our list she says!
OK I say, never had work from them in the past 3 years anyway!
Question is, why is this company hasseling me to part with my companies money with no likelhood of ever getting a return?
We must spend in excess of £25k pa in the time, paperwork, form filling and direct costs to stay on these schemes, I must personnaly fill in in Excess of 300 Contractors questionnaires annually.
I have certificates, testimonials, stickers for our vans etc from at least 4 accredited / verification bodies companies.
Do we use them NO. Why advertise them.
what % of your organisation is CSCS -100% I say (it is!) but no one checks!!
I now have a database of the likely permutations of the questions which have been asked and one of our staff completes these using this! Is this good management or just fiddling the forms - no one checks or ever acknowledges reciept - so why bother.
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Posted By Jim Walker
This thread gives me a chance to have a rant about how IOSH missed a golden opportunity to resolve this.
A few years ago IOSH and SPA had a joint passport scheme; my company invested considerable time and money (tens of thousands) in this. We delivered the course ourselves (thus controlling quality of training) to our own people plus anyone else (at almost cost price) who were interested.
When clients stated they needed operatives to possess “passport X” we would say “well, we don’t have that, but we do offer IOSH/SPA as an alternative”. Without exception the answer was “IOSH? OK that’s good enough for us” Gradually all clients began quoting it as an acceptable equivalence. Basically the scheme was running on IOSH reputation for excellence. In my humble opinion a few more years, and it would have seen off all the alternatives.
Then suddenly, IOSH pulled out. Yes, SPA scheme does still exist but without IOSH it is not worth the paper etc. Given the time I personally invested in this scheme (one of five company trainers) I remain very bitter with IOSH for pulling the plug with no explanation.
Regarding CSCS, you ONLY have to take the test (as many times as you wish, so long as you cough up), so there is no training nor refresher requirement. All operatives need to do is get the questions book spend 30 minutes memorising the answers, take test forget H&S for the next 3 years. As Dave says it’s a joke scheme designed to fill CITB coffers.
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