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Posted By renown
We have just taken on a 16 year old school leaver in our packing department. I have been asked if it is ok for him to have training on a vertical panel saw, as part of his role would be to cut cardboard etc.on the odd occasion.
Whilst operating the saw initially under supervision would not be a problem with the risk assessment, I am not sure if he is old enough to use this machine.
Can anyone help me as to where I can find information on what machines they must not use at this age.
Reg 19 s99 of the Management regs '99 mentions criteria for 'above the minimum school leaving age', but I feel at 16, he is not yet mature enough.
I thank everyone in anticipation of clarification of this issue
Regards
Renown
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Posted By S.Alder
I may be wrong (memory fading) but i believe young persons have to be eighteen years of age to operate "Dangerous machinery" i am pretty sure this comes either from the management regs or PUWER. Will check when i have more time.
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Posted By TBC Hi I don't think the age thing is a problem here - it's the maturity or lack of it which may be in question. Given sufficient training and close supervision I'm sure many young lads will be more than capable of handling the job. All training must be recorded and signed for of course. Perhaps a short written test would also help with training records and hammer home the importance of taking H&S issues and machine guarding seriously. Don't forget that important 'Young Persons' risk assessment of course. Have you met the lad and assessed him as to his maturity and capabilities? This particular incident doesn't mention anything about the lad being too young. http://www.hse.gov.uk/wood/pdf/woodn23.pdf
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Posted By Jasonjg
I always thought there was a schedule with had limits on what young persons could work on i.e. dangerous machinery schedule.
Apparently more recent regulations seem to revoke those rules in one part however other similar rules may still apply elsewhere and it is just a question of pinpointing. Unfortunately I do not have access to all the info on me at the moment.
With regards to saws and young persons, I found the following text that may help however I am not 100% sure if this was however revoked by puwer in whole.
4. Under Reg. 13 of the Woodworking Machines Regulations 1974 no person under 18 may operate certain machines unless they have successfully completed an approved training course. The machines are:-
a circular saw (including panel saw, dimension saw)
any other sawing machine fitted with a circular blade
a hand-fed surface planer (including a combined machine which is being used for surfacing); or
a vertical spindle moulder (including routers)
Like I said, this is all huff and puff if, in fact, other regulations have now revoked the above requirement which I think Puwer did.
If I am vaguely remembering correctly, legislation has since become less prescriptive however I could be very wrong.
At least you know where it was stated in one instance.
Hopefully someone who is more up to date with the exact info can find those missing links that occasionally evade the rest of us until we really need to discover the info in our own circumstances.
Sorry I could not have been of more help
Jason
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Posted By Ian Bennett
I think you answered your own question, by having questions of immaturity of the lad, you obviously have doubts.
I'm sure I would not thank you as a responsible parent for my son having an accident. Give him time to gain experience.
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Posted By S.Alder
Health and Safety legislation prohibits young persons from engaging in a number of operations and activities. These include:-
Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 prohibits the use of all potentially dangerous machinery including:-
Food preparation machinery (e.g. mincing machines)
Power presses and guillotines
Circular saws and spindle moulding machines
Fork lift trucks
Milling machines etc.
Hope this helps.
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Posted By Frank Hallett
Hi folks
Ihave been prompted by the responses to this question to go to L22 and check.
This is what L22 says:-
PUWER 98 Regulation 9
(1) EVERY EMPLOYER SHALL ENSURE THAT ALL PERSONS WHO USE WORK EQUIPMENT HAVE RECEIVED ADEQUATE TRAINING FOR PURPOSES OF HEALTH AND SAFETY, INCLUDING TRAINING IN THE METHODS WHICH MAY BE ADOPTED WHEN USING THE WORK EQUIPMENT, ANY RISKS WHICH SUCH USE MAY ENTAIL AND PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN.
(2) EVERY EMPLOYER SHALL ENSURE THAT ANY OF HIS EMPLOYEES WHO SUPERVISES OR MANAGES THE USE OF WORK EQUIPMENT HAS RECEIVED ADEQUATE TRAINING FOR PURPOSES OF HEALTH AND SAFETY, INCLUDING TRAINING IN THE METHODS WHICH MAY BE ADOPTED WHEN USING THE WORK EQUIPMENT, ANY RISKS WHICH SUCH USE MAY ENTAIL AND PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN.
The associated Guidance is extensive, but this is what Paras 189 & 190 say:-
"Training for young people
189 Training and proper supervision of young people is particularly important because of their relative immaturity and unfamiliarity with the working environment. Induction training is of particular importance. There are no general age restrictions in legislation relating to the use of work equipment although there is some ACOP material in the relevant publications dealing with lifting, power presses and wood working; all employees should be competent to use work equipment with due regard to health and safety regardless of their age.
190 The Management Regulations contain specific requirements relating to the employment of young people under the age of 18. These require employers to assess risks to young people before they start work, taking into account their inexperience, lack of awareness of potential risks and their immaturity. Employers must provide information to parents of school-age children (for example when they are on work experience) about the risks and the control measures introduced and take account of the risk assessment in determining whether the young person should undertake certain work activities".
L114 [ACoP for Woodworking machinery] refers to Young Persons; Paras 18 - 21 are relevant [although based on legislation that has now been subsumed into MHSW 99] and even then don't BAN young persons outright from using "high-risk" woodworking machinery.
L21 Reg 19 is now the principal reference for what needs to be done additionally for young persons - neither the Reg nor the accompanying ACoP mention age restrictions in conjunction with any specific plant or machinery.
"HS[G]165 - Young people at work : a guide for employers" dates from 2000 and is probably the best reference source for you to go to Renown.
Enjoy!
Frank Hallett
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Posted By Jasonjg
Thanks for clarification Frank.
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Posted By renown
Many thanks to all, especially Frank for your helpful advice. I had located the first three - PUWER, Woodworking and Management, but need to purchase the last one.
This lad starts next Monday, so I will be carrying out the Young Persons risk assessment straight away. His supervisor is already of the opinion that he is quite immature, so he won't train him until he feels he is ready.
Once again, many thanks, I appreciate the time and effort that has been put in.
regards - Renown
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Posted By George Wedgwood
Your E/L insurer most probably will not cover you if your employee is under 18. All of my Company's early risk assessments demonstrated clearly that young peoople under 18 were at too high a risk to employ on an Site where machinery, vehicles and heavy processes were operational. Now we simply have a HR imposed limit on new employees being over 18. Occasionally we will do a special risk assesment if a young person is identified early as being potentially useful when they come of age and we will let them learn the ropes in an office environment only, under strict supervision. The RA considers access and egress to & from the office so that they would not be exposed to vehicle movements. But that is not common.
My simple advice is 'don't let under 18's near machinery'. When they reach 18, take them on as part of a planned induction to a gradually increasing range of tasks based on risk, whilst educating them continually in skills development and ensure close supervision at all times until a Manager is prepared to sign off competence in each skills or H&S hazard or process. It pays off long term.
If you need a 'nice' photo of an arm parted from its hand, let me know and I will mail it to you - it serves as a very graphic reminder of what can happen when an incompetent comes into contact with machinery!
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Posted By Frank Hallett
One last point Renown, prompted by your last posting. Incidentally - thanks for the "Thanks"; any recognition is an encouragement to continue providing the input.
Please give consideration to MHSW reg 19 requirement for "competent supervision" and remember that this requires the supervior to be competent at the job to be undertaken AND competent in supervising young persons.
Frank Hallett
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Posted By Glyn Atkinson
I hope to post a common sense answer that would apply to most young person employment around power tools and machinery.
Where I am employed, all employees regardless of age are given a full safety induction prior to moving into production areas and being influenced by the experienced peace rate workers.
On top of this, there is a full section devoted to young persons under the age of 18, and what they can and cannot do on the shop floor. This includes the use of mechanical hoists, and mechanised pulley machinery, not just tooling or power apparatus.
All sections of the induction have read back and sign sections that go into the person's training matrix file on our training database. We even go as far as four different types of knife use training for different department working.
The records are in name and clock number order as these do not change throughout the person's employment, so that any temporary transfers of labour between production lines can be easily assessed via a quick phone call to the training co-ordinator as to personal training completed and personal capability.
Young persons including apprentices are closely shadowed in all work areas and never work unsupervised, even though peace rate working is in operation.
By keeping to a system that is written down and can be cross checked and audited, we are hopefully keeping any work problems with ALL staff to a minmum, and could produce good training records and proof of good supervision if any accident were externally investigated.
These are not fool proof methods, but does show our commitment to correctly supervising, controlling and training young persons and, indeed, all staff to a proper standard.
It may seem a bit Big Brother, but we live in a compensation culture and need to assist insurance investigations and claims as well as possible.
hoipe this is of help,
regards , Glyn Atkinson (CMIOSH).
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