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Posted By Robert.
I'm trying to find information that can point me to the hirers responsibilities to the contractor. Specifically in relation to ground conditions load bearing and testing for the crane set-up.
Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
Thanks
Robert.
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Posted By Salus
Robert I think the area you need to look at is BS7121- 1989 for a fully contracted lift
(the contractor is responsible for supplying the appointed person, planning the lift,operation of a safe system of work and organising and control of the lifting operations)
This may be out of date last looked at 2000.
There are different responsibilities for a hired crane ,but are covered in BS7121
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Posted By Ken C
Robert
From my experience the Hiree is responsible for the ground conditions irrespective of who planned the lift.
If I recall correctly there was an incident where Railtrack were found culpable in the overturning of a Baldwins crane even though their only involvement in the operation was to provide somewhere to lift from.
You need to get a copy of the CPA conditions of contract as these explain the whole process.
I know when I did a course with the CITB a few years ago the liabilities that were placed on the hiree were frightening.
I hope that helps.
Regards
Ken c
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Posted By Brian Jones
Robert,
I'm lead to believe by a member of a Mobile Crane Operators Trade Association, that after a discussion with the HSE, the owner of the site would be responsible for the ground conditions. Which seems reasonable as who else should know what services etc might be located under the surface where a crane was going to be set up?
Brian
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The best way round this problem is to supply a full ground survey to the lift company for the proposed standing areas. Clearly agree and mark visually the areas and then your problems will be reduced. If however there is an undetected anomoly then you still carry the can, not the lift company. I remember doing a bridge lift once and the survey overlooked a defunct BT duct partially filled with rubble. The bridge fortunately was barely clear of the ground when the collapse slowly commenced. It was grounded safely - thankfully.
Whatever surveys are done you still are responsible for the contents, or lack of them!
Bob
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Posted By Alan Woodage
Robert, as our colleagues have stated above the person hiring the contract lift will be responsible for ground conditions. This situation and liability can only be absolved by the appointment of a qualified Geotechnical engineer to carry out surveys and testing if required. This can be simple if the rigger loads are very light. What often is the best way is to distribute the load over larger rigger pads or grillage to reduce the point load. The other point to consider is that if you are a contractor to a client who is then responsible for the ground. By this I mean the client owns the site and is therefore best placed to know the ground conditions but will never commit to anything of this nature. It is again a very difficult area and realistically it comes back to being practicable, I believe if you do survey work to identify services and ensure you are aware of the ground type and it soil you should be able to get an approximate load capacity, therfore you have at least taken some action to address the situation.
On a lighter note I once had a crane put a rigger through a sewer in the west end of London and made the news / travel reports etc. No Problem Thames water had surveyed the area and given the all clear and when I telephoned while looking down the hole the answer was It's not a sewer it cant be there isn't one there, to which I replied with the polite description of what was floating by. The reason for this tale is even with all the checks and planning the unexpected still happens. Put controls in place to protect everyone and plan for the worst case when lifting everything as the ground is a very uncontollable thing.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Alan
The point I was making was that the best protection for the contractor is the geotech. survey but even if the expert gets it wrong the contractor is still liable unless you contract the liability to the engineer undertaking the survey. Not many will take that responsibility though.
Bob
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Posted By alex mccreadie
Robert
Responsibilities are best found in BS7121 Parts 1 & 3 just to confuse there is a new BS7121 Part 1 Due out in March.
I am not an expert but it is everyones responsibility for ground conditions and planning the lift. It used to be said Ground Conditions were down to the Hirer but this was proved wrong by the HSE. The Crane Company has a duty to supply the Rigger Loads to the Hirer but he has still a responsibility to his own operator i.e. has he a safe system of work.
This new thing happened about 3 years ago and has made if carried out properly a safer lifting environment for all.
The Baldwins incident was at Boston Manor Grove and they were cleared in a court of law as they had supplied all information required which was accepted by the Main Contractor and London Underground. The Rigger Loads had been given and the Method Statement Signed of by all parties to say the ground conditions were correct.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Alex
I am not quite sure of what you are saying here. The liabilities for ground conditions are always set out in the contract and the HSE will almost always seek to bring the contractor into the frame because they are in control of the site. Yes there are duties and responsibilities on the lifting company to supply information but the type and amount varies with the type of lift contract being used. With a contract lift the lifting contractor must be given adequate information by the contractor on which the safe method of lifting is to be undertaken. This includes the ground survey. If I as contractor am not designing the method I must rely on the lift company expertise - I do not need the outrigger loads. If the contractor information is deficient in whatever way then I as contractor must take responsibility not the lift company. This is what the original question was concerned with.
I am unclear about your HSE proved this comment. If my memory is correct Baldwins as the lift contractor were able to show a deficiency in the ground report and thus were held to have discharged their duties.
Bob
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Posted By alex mccreadie
Bob
As I said no expert, point you have questioned is BS7121 Part 1 9.2 Crane Standing or Support Conditions. This is relevant to the Appointed Person organising the lift whether it be Contract Lift or CPA Hire the ground Conditions are down to everyone!!!
Roberts original question was for info this part of BS7121 will give him the info.
Ta Alex
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Posted By Robert.
Thank you all.
Really very helpful.
The geotech route and responsibilities was exactly as I had imagined, as the site conditions with lots of made ground demanded it.
My issue has now been resolved.
Robert.
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