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#1 Posted : 23 February 2006 10:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Frank Hallett An open question - especially to the Regulators 'cos their responses have an incredible affect on how us normal mortals try to understand and implement the Law. With regard to working at height legislation; what are the technical and logical differences between:- A plasterer on relatively short stilts and a circus performer on longer stilts? A labourer sitting on a "Youngmans" 2metres above the next landing point with no edge protection and a Parks employee who is required to ride a horse? I know what the legislation says; I know what the associated HSE ACoP, Guidance and explanatory text says - but none of them provide a a consistantly defensible answer. Frank Hallett
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#2 Posted : 23 February 2006 11:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Hay I think you have hit on a very important issue here Frank. This sort of lack of clarity makes our jobs far more difficult in that you get a knee jerk reaction and all of a sudden everything is banned because of 'elf and safety'. I had an example recently - from a maintenance chap 'I can't use ladders any more because of you lot!' Paul
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#3 Posted : 23 February 2006 11:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By gham I think the other point is In the event of a site vist form our Inspectorate Colleagues, interpratation of the legislation and guidance by the site safety management and that of the inspector may be quite different. (and try getting them to provide you with a recommendation to comply with their interpretation In the event of and accident and subsiquent litigatation, the demostrating you are doing as much as reasonably practical to reduce the risk could be as trick as peeing into the wind. If you are going to have to defend your actions then you should at least be given a consistant set of rules and guidance to work from G'
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#4 Posted : 23 February 2006 14:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By steven bentham What's the difference, easy: Scaffolding - construction enforced by HSE (good guys) 2m Horses in parks - get smaller horse or ride a pony Plasters on stilts - enforced by HSE (good guys) Circus performers on stilts - enforced by LA's, don't worry about the stilts what about the xxxxing lions! Oh you expected guidelines from the Regulators; you need to do your own risk assessments mate!! Were IOSH consulted before this legislation was brought in? Were the rank & file inspectors consulted? And as for small indoor or outdoor hop-ups!
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#5 Posted : 23 February 2006 14:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Frank Hallett Thanks for your posting Steve What I had actually expected in my naivety was a far better and more workable definition of WaH. For the regulators to identify - almost in passing - that they "would not be minded to consider a police officer on a horse as working at height" when there is such an aggressive approach to other, essentially similar situations really is inconsistant. Of course, the definition of WaH could possibly have been written rather better or the existing universal definition enforced more consistantly. Frank Hallett
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#6 Posted : 23 February 2006 14:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jack Frank you seem to be yearning for that nice old prescriptive legislation. Unfortunately (for some), we're now in the era of this goal setting stuff. Some of us are happy with that and expect to operate in a real world full of all sorts of inconsistancies. It's what makes the job interesting. Problem solving not rule following.
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#7 Posted : 23 February 2006 14:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Frank Hallett No Jack - definitely not after a prescriptive system - just a better applied and thought out set of fundamentals. Frank Hallett
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#8 Posted : 23 February 2006 15:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Barry x What is so wrong with having prescriptive legislation? There were a few inconsistencies in certain areas i agree but surely the degree of information given by the hse/ standard instruments was far more helpful in guiding employers to what is classed as acceptable than the current system of assess the risks yourself, decide on suitable control measures yourself, then get clobbered by the HSE when there is an accident because there view of reasonably practicable is different to yours? Surely a mix of goal setting and prescriptive legislation (or a decent acop) would be a better system for work at height? Barry
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#9 Posted : 23 February 2006 19:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By steven bentham Perhaps you should have asked another questions Frank: Did we ever need such legislation? Work at heights will be enforced in construction; its an obvious risk if uncontrolled. You could argue that construction (on the whole)has this well thought out. Whilst work at relatively low heights remains a risk,the existing risk based legislation should have been used by regulators. I have seen some nasty accidents from relatively small heights (smaller than a horse but bigger than a pony!)but the UK did not need this legislation at all.
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#10 Posted : 23 February 2006 22:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By Richard Altoft No difference In every case the risk needs to be assessed and if it is reasonably practicable to reduce the risk then it must be reduced provided of course that does not introduce other greater risks R
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