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#1 Posted : 24 April 2006 15:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Scott I am currently updating guidance on what to do in the event of discovering a suspect package or possible bomb. An employee has questioned the use of fire alarm systems to evacuate a building where a suspect package has been found, she states that during a training course she was told that this should not happen. I have heard different opinions on this. Does anybody have any ideas where I could get some definative guidance on this matter?
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#2 Posted : 24 April 2006 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan Haynes Whichever office I have worked in - the perceived wisdom is that you should not use the fire alarm to evacuate the building, but should use some other method to get people to go to a different assembly point from that used for 'fires'. The reasoning being that if you use the same assembly point as for fires, that's where they will put the bomb. [Theory falls down if they read the evacuation procedure though.....]
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#3 Posted : 24 April 2006 15:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Descarte The reasoning behind this is that some bombs can be activated by loud noises/vibration and the fire alarm in itself could set the bomb off. Better would be use a tannoy system if one has one although this is still a loud noise. Note also for your policy you do not want people using evacuation routes which will lead them past, next to or even in line of sight with any suspect package. You may need a seperate evacuation plan or seperate contingency plans for suspect packages found in different places. This may include something being left in reception, a toilet or in your mail room. Certain fire evacuation points may not be usable depending on their proximity to the location if known of the suspect package. If you need any further information about this or what to look for in suspect packages, planning routes etc. please feel free to contact me
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#4 Posted : 24 April 2006 16:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Philby' Stuart, the employee heard right....The met and WYF&RS both advise the use of 'verbal communication', so no radio or mobile communication either. Isolate raea, inform emergency services, evacuate away from source...preferably by a number of diverse routes...see below...in fact too much to put here and needs to be specific to your environment We operate this policy also Also a number of other 'specialists' have advised the same...various reasons given are...electrical or radio impulses setting the 'device off'....don't want lots of people stampedeing past the area...if remotely detonated, and therefore someone watching, doesn't alert them to the mass exodus, (even though you are still going to get one). try your local Police Events Co-ordinator/Liaison Officer, (gave more info than anti-terrorist Advisor) or LA Risk/Disaster Planning Dept Philby'
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#5 Posted : 24 April 2006 16:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By anon1234 Agree with most of what Des said. The key is to have a plan that does not put evacuees at additional risk due to evacuation route or assembly point. You may need to consider the relative integrity of your building in protecting people from bomb blasts and for a similar reason the bomb evacuation point may need to be further away than the fire assembly point and or in a different direction. You should consider the likely locations of bombs when developing your plan e.g. mailroom, reception, site boundary / car park (car bombs) etc. I could go on with my ramblings but hopefully you get the jist that you need to consider the various scenarios and act accordingly.
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#6 Posted : 24 April 2006 16:13:00(UTC)
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#7 Posted : 24 April 2006 16:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By RobAnybody Stuart, There's some good advice here. My time as an explody person (not me, the explosives & stuff) in the RAF taught me a few other things too. 1. When planning your assembly points try to make sure you have a number of them (cover all escape routes) & that they are BEHIND large buildings. Acts as a shield. 2. Unlike a fire alarm take ALL bags & other personal belongings with you, that saves the bomb disposal hours of time locating a bag with a bomb in. Stops butties & ipods being spread everywhere too. 3. Open all doors & windows as you evacuate. This allows blast to disipate more easily & causes less structural damage to the building. 4. Make sure you have a really well planned strategy & practice it a couple of times a year when people are not expecting it. Better to screw up a practice than die for real. 5. Don't do what a certain governemt department in Leeds does... They have a policy for everyone to gather in the centre of the building ( the cafeteria I believe) in case there are trip wires. Knowing that I would simply (were I a bad person that is) blow up the cafeteria. Very stupid. 6. Let your neighbours know!! Talk to them about their bomb evacuation plans. 7. Talk to your local experts. They are usually very nice people who respond well to a cup of tea & some biscuits. Rob
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#8 Posted : 24 April 2006 16:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By RobAnybody Stuart, I forgot one other thing. Consider the old Distance, Shielding, Time matrix. Be very far away, behind lots of cover & wait. It either goes bang or a nice man makes it stop. Rob.
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#9 Posted : 24 April 2006 17:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By peter gotch Hi Stuart, For some buildings, it may be safer to evacuate to safe place inside rather than outside - most likely devastating bomb is in a vehicle parked outside. Effectively depends on whether your building will collapse or not. Need to consider various issues including whether explosion is going to result in lots of flying shards of glass around the innards of the building or whether you have toughened etc glazing or applied film to protect. Went on course many years ago where security expert illustrated difference between two floors at Canary Wharf. One out of action for months and months; the other back in operation within a couple of days. The difference being the application of film on windows. Regards, Peter
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#10 Posted : 24 April 2006 18:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Impey There is a video showing the performance of a window safety film at: http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/...21pgi252/EXP=1145983787/**http%3a//www.cmwindowfilms.com/3mbombblast.mpeg It is important that bomb procedures are brought up-to-date, to take into account the nature of the attacks on 7/7, and the possibility that a dirty bomb or biochemical weapon is employed.
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#11 Posted : 24 April 2006 21:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By shaun mckeever One of the reasons you do not use the fire alarm is because the action to take in the event of a bomb alert may be different from that for a fire alarm e.g. you are asked to close doors and windows when leaving because of a fire but in the event of a bomb it is better to leave doors and windows open - the blast from a bomb takes the path of least resistance so less damage by leaving doors and windows open, also you are asked to not stop to collect your belongings in a fire evacuation but in a bomb evacuation you are asked to collect your belongings. In a fire evacuation you take the nearest exit whereas in a bomb evacuation, using the fire alarm to evacuate the buildingmay cause the occupants to discharge in the path of the bomb. I was the fire service incident commander on a number of the IRA bombs in London, some of the comments made above about remaining in the building away from glass are applicable as is using basement areas that have been surveyed by a structural engineer. Your bomb assembly points (there should be four nominated points) should be at least 500m away from the building and behind substantial cover e.g. other buildings.
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#12 Posted : 26 April 2006 19:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By d88 Some interesting points raised. I've been lucky to attend government courses on dealing with this and the general consensus is that your plan should be flexible enough to deal with different threats. i.e. your response to a chemical/ biological threat is slightly different to that of an explosive threat e.g. whether to open or close doors/windows. Your main priority however would be to evacuate your staff to a relative safe area . For samll items i.e. letter bombs 100 metres should suffice, for larger threats your looking at having a RVP around 400 metres away from your location. Obviously I don'tknow your type of business but I'd factor the relative risk of getting a threat and the impact of an explosion within your work environment i.e are there flammable materials around ? .A Risk assesment should give you a better idea of this. Other factors would be ensuring staff are kept together(for as long as possible) at your RVP incase the emergency services wish to speak to them to gather evidence. THis I'm told is an important point as the bomb disposal guys like to know what their going into - which is fair enough i suppose ! Some factors have been discussed in other posts other incidentals would be to include clear access RVP's for the emergency Services. If access areas are congested during peak times then try to have a plan b in place. Finally use the 4 C's as an aide memoir - Confirm (is it a viable threat ? - it helps if you have a rough idea what to look for, alot harder in practice i know but limited in the answer i can give but just make sure staff don;t go poking around in suspect bags etc looking for 'wires, fuses' etc if it don't look right and the staff are deemed competent enough, then take their evidence at face value ), Clear ( clear the area - staff and others evacuation plan), Cordon ( cordon off the area but ensuring the emergency services have clear access i.e. no obstructions in the path of the suspect device ). To be honest there's so much more you could cover but also make sure you have plans of the building/ as well as clear directions to your RVP's and potential ICP's to co-ordinate your efforts. P.S. if you were unfortunate to have an incident then having some kind of media response at the ready is always handy !!
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