Posted By pedro Good evening all As the new H&S manager I identified that we needed more Fire Marshals in the factory. So I duly identified a creditable trainer, had the funds authorised then set about touting for volunteers.........out of a workforce of over 350 I had 3! Realising that the actual number of qualified FMs was insufficient to fulfill our statutory obligations it was decided that managers should nominate personel from their respective department.......result...36 new FMs. We also have over 30 first aiders and we have 8 Safety Reps (more RoES that safety reps as they are not unionised). We pay our 1st aiders £5 a week. Due to the fact that staff have been nominated for FM duties (and just so they don't feel left out) the 'Safety Reps' have asked the management to start to pay them as they do 1st aiders! My opinion is that they should not be paid but want to do it for the good of their fellow workers and that they do not have the responsibility any where near the resonsibility of a 1st aider. As for the safety reps they should also be doing it for the good of the staff and making sure they are not being asked to do things that are both dangerous or illegal. In the event that the company decide not to pay them I feel a backlash and a refusal to carry out the duties but I am not sure how we stand on insisting they do FM duties as part of their conditions of employment. As for the Safety Reps if we are not a unionised site is there still a legal obligation to have them? I don't want to lose my S reps as thay are important in my changing of a culture plans for the site. I would be interested to hear people opinions n this especially if you have had to deal with a similar situation.

Posted By pedro DrB Its not a case of "not what I want to hear" but a case of I know. It is my job to try and change said poor ethos. But as any H&S worth their salt knows this takes time and bloomin hard work. As I said I am the new H&S man and will endeavour to change things,(not that I feel I have to justify myself to you!) but all I asked was for some opinions on what to do and how people have dealt with similar situations not people coming on with no real valid points or attempt to help and slating my company. I would appreciate it if you would no longer reply or submit to this or any other threads submitted by me.

Posted By Raymond Rapp Easy Pedro. You cannot ask for an opinion and then 'shoot the messenger' because it is not what you want to hear! It would be nice to think that people would volunteer for the benefit of others, but then back in the real world...a cash incentive is quite common for first aiders and I don't see why the same principle could not be applied to fire wardens. There are of course other incentives that could be utilised instead of a cash payment. Using a 'big stick' to achieve your goal is fraught with danger, and, as indicated previously, not conducive with promulgating an open safety culture. This is where you must use some stealth and guile to outwit those protagonists e.g those that are willing help out will be chosen to assist in preparing fire risk assessments, risk strategies and provided with free training etc. Remember, everyone likes a freebie and no one wants to be left out! Incidentally, there have been a number of similar threads on your subject, so it might be worthwhile checking out the Forum archives. Regards Ray

Posted By Raymond Rapp RP You cannot force someone to do something that contains a risk, albeit it moderate, or that is not in their contract of employment. Ray

Posted By Steve Butler It's almost like telling staff that they will get paid a bonus for wearing PPE - you wouldn't do it. Taking on the role of first aider/fire marshall is something that staff enjoy and get a reward from doing so without monetary incentives (thats always been my experience anyway). I have 4 FM's and am in the process of 'recruiting' another 1 or maybe 2 FA's, money will not be discussed, is not an issue and will not affect the performance or committment. You talk about changing culture - start with this approach and get individuals who are keen to do the role for job satisfaction, not a bonus payment.

Posted By pedro Thanks for the replies, Kate I appreciate the sentiment and I understand that you are not being flippant but in this particular environment and industry biscuits are not really going to work. However it has put my mind to work at maybe finding another incentive. RP I agree with you in that you cannot force some-one to 'volunteer' for something they do not want to do. However in this situation what other choice do I have...as I said I did ask for real volunteers at first with little response....do I now just accept that we cannot have sufficient numbers of FMs and hope we don't have a fire! Whilst I also agree with DrB about the ethos, surely if I insist on having 'volunteers' for this duty it shows a committment to H&S which has obviously been lacking in the past and it will hopefully help in the battle to change the culture. You also quoted HASW Sect 7 so does that infact mean that I can 'force' (not a word I would use...persuade is better) staff into doing this. Its ironic that after the first day of training even the more militant of the 'volunteers' actually enjoyed it and showed some enthusiasm for it. Maybe I'm on the right track here but not only do I have to keep it going so do the top level mngmnt! Thanks for the replies Pedro

Posted By pedro Baggie, Thanks for your input and I will take a hit on the misuse of the word 'Duties'. It would appear that there is no real answer to this one as some people say pay and some say don't. In an ideal world we would all like to think that we would have employees volunteering for H&S positions without seeking financial gain but then are we all not supposed to be first and foremost wanting to stop accidents, injury or death to people, as H&S professionals...?yet we command quite good rates of pay to do it! I suppose really it comes down to the top level mngmnt and whether they are prepared to loosen the purse strings to give them the money. As for the Safety Reps I am looking toward replacing them with RoES and having a proper selection process for this, as the people with the loudest mouths are not always respected by the workforce and can actually alienate themselves because of this. I think we should be democratic about it and let the people decide! Sounds like a rubbish channel 4 reality show that doesn't it!!!! As I said we are not a unionised site so the term safety rep is a bit misleading. Also the safety reps we do have have not recieved any formal training so when I informed them that they will be doing this training several of them did not want to continue as safety reps. Now before anyone states the obvious and suggests that they may have learning difficulties etc this is not the case they just feel that doing the job for x amount of years qualifies them to be safety reps, but they have little or no understanding of H&S management,risk assessing etc and rely totally on experience. This has been an interesting thread and for my first taste of the IOSH forum has been good (say for a few comments ....see removed threads....sorry Mr Moderator!...it won't happen again I promise!) Thank you Pedro

Posted By halesowen Baggie Pedro, All my safety positions are filled by volunteers (I never appoint employees myself). I do try and persuade the 'big mouths' to think about taking the positions advertised (these people are in most cases put forward by the workforce anyway). £250 a year is money well spent in my view, and it was down to a Safety Reps info and work that has prevented a forklift overturning accident happening. £250 in relation to £ thousands if the accident had been realised.

Posted By Merv Newman I reckon that most people here have already got it right : RRR = Recognition, reinforcement, reward. Getting dumped (or volunteered) as a sweep or as a fire marshal or whatever is not something that the avaerage employee will welcome. So make sure they are Recognised as carrying out an essentiaél important function. Reinforce their sense of being a valuable person by involving direct one-on-one contact with senior management "Hi Mary, aren't you one of our Fire Marshalls ? Tell me what do you do" Reward by a meal, a drink, free coffee, reserved parking whatever. No cost but high value (to the employee) As someone said on this or another similar thread "gold dust" It costs peanuts but it motivates. Merv (sunday night and I'm waiting for me dinner)