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Whose responsibility is it for the evacuation of disabled persons?
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Posted By shaun mckeever
In response to an issue raised in another thread (Protection of external fire escape)I would like to pose the above question.
To kick off I have today just returned from carrying out a fire risk assessment where the occupiers procedures are to move disabled occupants to a refuge within a protected stair and then let the fire service rescue them from there. Is it the responsibility of the fire service?
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Posted By shaun mckeever
OK Gilly, but as the title suggests if the fire brigade are not responsible who is?
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Posted By Safetynut
who is responsible?
answer = The building management / employer / host (collective responsibility)
Escape plans for disabled people should never rely on the fire service to provide for disabled people. Evacuation should be planned to facilitate the escape of all building occupants to aplace of safety as quick as possible. Therefore generally before the arrival of the fire service.
Refuges "Safe Haven"
There is a common misunderstanding that a refuge is a place to leave disabled people to wait for the fire service to effect for their escape.
Refuges are relatively safe waiting areas for short periods. They are not areas where disabled people should be left indefinitely until rescued by the fire brigade, or until the fire is extinguished.
The Use of a Lift
Unlike a normal passenger lift it is essential that any evacuation lift can continue to operate safely when there is a fire in the building. Although it is not necessary to provide a lift for the escape of disabled people, a fire fighting lift (which is provided principally for the use of the fire service in fighting fires ) may be used for the evacuation of disabled people prior to the arrival of the fire service, who will then assume responsibility of any remaining persons.
Fire Authorities do have conflicting opinions in the use of fire fighting lifts. If the building that you operate has a fire fighting lift speak to the fire service to establish a method that you can use to operate the lift before they arrive.
Discussing evacuation with disabled people is particularly beneficial in breaking down assumptions about their evacuation requirements. P.E.E.P
i hope this helps
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Posted By shaun mckeever
It's also amazing the number of people I come across who would place a disabled person in a refuge area and wait for the fire service. Quite how long they would wait I'm not sure.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
It's also interesting how people equate the terms 'evacuate' and 'rescue'.
The fire brigade rescue people (if they can) from burning buildings. Management of workplaces are to have plans for the evacuation of occupants - including assisting disabled persons where necessary - which may involve temporary use of refuges as part of the process.
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Posted By leanne
we have a member of the office who is in a wheelchair, and we have other members of the office who are trained in the use of a evac chair, which we have mentioned in the fire plan.
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Posted By Crim
The way my local fire brigade think at present it is the duty of the building manager/employer etc. to provide for disabled persons whether at work or visiting premises. The Fire Plan should take into account the various types of disability and how best to evacuate those persons from the building. Some can walk unaided to a fire escape route, others will need some assistance. Those who rely on wheelchairs however will be most at risk if above the ground floor unless adequate ramps are available.
Staff trained in the use of Evac Chairs will be necessary but how far can we trust people to look after others when the flames are licking their "a**e" and they may be out of the building when the fire starts.
HASWA is the Act containing all requirements on employers and building managers and local Fire brigades use this to apply thier own rules.
Safe Havens are seen to be acceptable as a place to put disabled persons so they do not slow down the evacuation of others, especially when there are excess travel distances or a number of different levels. The Mersey Tunnel has recently provided Save Havens under the roadway where people can go and await the emergency services who can then lead them to safety. This could be 1 mile in either direction!
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Crim
I cannot speak for the arrangments in the Mersey Tunnel or other similar unique places but you end your comments with the suggestion that safe havens are acceptable to place disabled persons. Do you mean just as a temporary measure whilst others escape and then to be brought out and continue the escape or do you mean to place the disabled occupants there until they are rescued by the fire service?
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Posted By Crim
Shaun,
If I was drawing up an evactuation plan for disabled persons I would have all persons evacuate at the same time with nobody in safe havens which delay their escape and also delay the escape for persons who act as "Minders" for those people.
I have first hand experience, through my daughter attending a local college during the summer months, of the evacuation plan for the college. The Plan was approved by the local fire brigade who have stated to the college that their role is not to rescue people therefore the responsibility is that of the college. Safe Havens have been approved and if a fire breaks out while my daughter is in attendance and above the ground floor, she will be taken to a Safe Haven to await rescue by the fire brigade. They do have Evac Chairs but my daughter would be extremely reluctant to sit on one, in fact she would probably kick and scream at the sight of it and become very distressed!
Fortunately the building has been built just a few years ago and is up to date with regard to fire precautions etc. otherwise I may not have placed her there.
I don't like it but what should I do - boycott the summer play scheme and deprive my daughter of joining the fun with her brother? She does gain a lot from being there, days out etc. I have thought of this procedure as a form of disability discrimination - treating wheelchair users differently to able people. Could be another thread here?
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
Draft guidance for office, shops for Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 as amended says that employers, owners etc have the responsibility to evacuate. Consultation currently in place on this doc. Scottish Executive website has it.
With my previous employers we had evac chairs and teams of people trained to evacuate anyone not able to use the stairs e.g. people with broken legs in plaster etc. They all had their own individual plans developed with them (including the 'temporary' disability).
They were evacuated after the able bodied to prevent delays but mostly to prevent 'panic pushing'.
However, in our very small premises where there might have been only one or two other employees, then the local Fire Brigade agreed that they would 'evacuate' on arrival - thankfully they were close by. In particualr we had a location where the wheelchair user couldn't transfer themselves and the other employee wasn't able to assist on their own and there was no-one else. As no other reasonable adjustment could be made this was accpetable to all at that time. Hopefully it is continually reviewed (left there many moons ago).
Another situation was where in a school with a child newly moved to HIgh School the local Fire Brigade came out and spent some time with the child talking and practising the evac chair with him and his 'team'. As the child moved around the building for classes the team headed for the 'safe area' and if the child was there they evacuated him and if not they left. The child and his family (who were advised and included in the dicsussions) were happy with this as the child was evacuated very shortly after the rest.
Apparently some evac chairs can seem quite steep so I've no doubt this could be scary and unsettling, maybe I should try one and see though my current employer doesn't have these - as yet.
Hope this helps
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Posted By jackw.
Hi, the fire regs are clear as is any brigade fire safety officer I have ever talked to. You let me in you are responsible for getting me out regardless of the level of my mobility. That's why EVAC chairs sell so well. Fire service view themselves as rescue of last resort.
cheers.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
So Jack, in a multi-occupied office block which has security manning a reception desk, is it landlord responsibility, the occupier the disabled person is visiting or the security who let the person in to begin with?
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Posted By Ken Taylor
It's a Management duty to resolve in your suggested multi-occupied office building Shaun - just like other health and safety duties for the building. There is a legal requirement to consult and co-operate with the other employers in both H&S and fire law.
Lilian, I hope you have it clearly in writing from your fire authority that they have now accepted the duty to assist disabled persons to evacuate from the building on your behalf - because if the incident does arise a recollection of a verbal promise from a well-meaning visiting fire officer is unlikely to stand up well in court if they don't actually save the abandoned individual.
I'm a bit concerned about the term 'safe haven' in this context. There are 'refuges' for temporary use and 'places of safety' - but lobbies in burning buildings are unlikely to qualify as the latter.
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Posted By Kate Graham
Lilian - evac chairs are indeed very scary to travel in, especially when being operated by an untrained person. I know this because I have sat in one as part of training fire wardens to use them.
As far as I am concerned, the refuge is a place for someone to wait until a person who knows how to use the chair and is physically strong enough to do the job can be summoned. It's no good just having the chairs and thinking that's enough. They are not at all easy to operate. If there is someone regularly on the premises who would need to be evacuated in a chair, they ought to take part in a practice run so that they know what to expect.
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Posted By Stupendous Man
Shaun,
In your multi-occupier office block scenario I would sugest the following.
If the person with the disability is your employee, or is specifically coming to visit your company, then it is your own responsibility to ensure that they can be evacuated safely.
However, this evacuation plan may require your co-operation with the building owner/landlord or other occupiers - do you need specific equipment or facilities in communal areas? What role can the security staff take (presumably they already have responsibilities when there is an emergency)? Does your evacuation plan impact on that of other occupiers and vice-versa?
If your thread is aimed at liability as opposed to practical solutions, I would simply say - your employee, your visitor = your liability.
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Posted By Safetynut
Consider a personal emergency evacuation plan PEEP questionaire for your disabled employee.
This questionnaire is intended to be completed by disabled persons to assist the development of a Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan for them, (what type of assistance they prefer/need, what communication they need,designated assistance, awareness of procedure etc).
Ask them to provide as much information to enable the host /employer to develop a suitable plan.
You may require to develop more than one plan for more than one building)
i have PEEP questionaire if you would like a copy let me know
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Posted By Crim
I wonder how insurance companies feel about asking employees not to evacuate from a fire situation but instead to go to a Refuge - Safe haven or whatever you call the place where disabled people are expected to wait while all other people are getting out. I mean the people who are tasked with using the Evac chair to assist those people. These places could mean travelling into a building or toward the fire placing the employee in danger.
Perhaps those of you who operate this type of procedure could ask your Insurer and let us all know? You may find your insurance premium rises!
many thanks.
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Whose responsibility is it for the evacuation of disabled persons?
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