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Posted By Diane Logan
I work as a Facilities manager in a care home which was recently inspected by the Care Commission Scotland. We were told that we needed to review our fire risk assessment and that it should be done by a 'competent person'. As the person responsible for health & safety I was nominated as that person but they didn't seem to think I was an appropriate person to do it. I have done risk assessment training and passed my NEBOSH General certificate.
Can anyone shed any light on who should be doing this. Are we supposed to get someone in to do it?
Thanks in anticipation.
Diane
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Posted By The toecap
You are probably not. Competent means, Knowledge, understanding, experience, Personal qualities, training, ability and they must know their limits. However, you may be able to demonstrate all these things
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Posted By Alan Haynes
Best definition of competent that I heard is;-
A Competent Person is someone who knows when he/she isn't competent
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Posted By JAI
What is competence? Did they inform you of the correct qualifications experience you require I’m guessing not, I have in the past sent an e mail to the following asking what competence is (FIRE.SAFETYREFORM@odpm.gsi.gov.uk) and guess what no description of a competent person just told to read the new guidance documents?
If I was you I would go and complete a 2 day fire risk assessment course accredited by Institute of Fire Engineers
And use the knowledge gained from NEBOSH and any risk assessment training to carry out your own risk assessment.
Fire risk assessment is not easy but to actually carry them out is the only way to learn
My initial assessments were check by a fire safety engineer
We had the same issue very large manufacturing plant, paying a fortune in consultant’s fees; well no more I tell you (got the ok from our insurance company)
I would like a copy of my fire risk assessment just ask
Off line please
Jai
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Posted By JAI
should have said
if you would like a copy of a fire risk assessment just ask off line
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Posted By Darren J Fraser
The advice from Jai is spot on. Complete a 2 day fire risk assessment course and do your own. Consultant will do it for a price.
Alternatively you could complete a 9 day fire course which covers not only Risk Assessment, but also training of fire warden / marshall and allows you to become a member of the fire engineers association. May be more than you are looking for.
Regards
Daz
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Posted By The toecap
There's the nebosh fire cert also
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Posted By AJM
At last people are starting to realize I have been banging on about this issue since i went to a seminar on the reforms last year and a fire safety managers course at the beginning of this year.
To me it is quite obvious that this type of assessment is going down the route similar to the legionella assessments and specialist people required, especially for medium to big size establishments.
Both my seminar and fire managers course was taken with the fire brigade and in their opinion and of course this is their opinion.
This has not been tested in case law as yet, but in the fire officers opinion the minimum that will be considered would be if the competent person had sat all 5 (3 week) modules of fire training coupled with experience.
I myself have an NVQ 4 and 10 years experience but when we paid for the guy to do it and you go round with them you then realize you were not competent.
It cost us 400 pounds, but a word of caution check the people that profess to do this as you can get some fly by night people doing it.
Alan
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Posted By JAI
This is another issue that will rumble on
If you wish to carry out the assessments complete further training and work with your local fire brigade.
Plus tell me this if fire officers are the best people to carry out FRA then explain why my local brigade have just had all their officers trained in how to conduct a FRA.
I refuse to pay some consultant £600 for half a days work.
Example
If you want to repair a boiler you have to be CORGI registered, so why not the same with FRA
The fire order should state only members of the IFE for example can carry out FRA
Jai
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Posted By Ashley Wood
Some very interesting and true information has come out of this question. I am an experienced fire consultant with 28 years experience. When I do a fire risk assessment I combine common sense, knowledge, experience and understanding of hazards. You cannot gain this from doing a 2 day course. I completed the IFE approved fire risk assessors course in April, I had to as I believe that there needs to be some accreditation in place to stop the 'cowboys'. The course even taught an old dog a new trick or two! However, a word of caution for all you budding fire risk assessors out there, do not bight off more than you can chew! A small retail premises or office is one thing a factory is another.
Lets turn this on its head. If I went on a 2 or 9 day course on H&S would I be competent?
Regarding charges by consultants. I know of H&S consultants that charge £800-1000 per day and they are always busy! The fee that is charged should relate to the size of the risk being assessed, the time on site and the time spent back at base compiling a compliant report. Also, the consultant doing the assessment should be able to provide advise on how to solve any problems found. They should also include in there costs a return visit to talk/walk you through the assessment and pass ownership on to you.
If anybody wants assistance feel free to e-mail me.
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Posted By Kieran J Duignan
I strongly recommend the 3-day course on Fire Risk Assessment that I attended at the Fire Service College earlier this year.
It combined guidance on sources of hazards, structural variations and diverse approaches to fire risk management with an emphasis on human factors. Subject to passing the multiple-choice questions, course completion is recognised by the IFE.
Good value
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Posted By John Thorley
JAI,
May i request a copy of your fire Risk Assessment to compare to my own,
Thanks Jo
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Posted By JAI
John
On it's way
ps
i agree don't bite of more than you can chew, but don't always pass the job to consultants, complete training and have a go yourself
Knowing your limitations
Jai
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Posted By Teresa Budworth There is a case going through the Scottish courts at the moment regarding the fire at Rosepark residential care home. The Care Commission was probably very aware of it when discussing who was competent to make the fire risk assessment of your home. If I were you, I would ask both your insurer and your local fire service for advice before undertaking the fire risk assessment. There is also fairly new guidance out on the topic, available at http://www.communities.g...sfullguide_id1501886.pdfReading the Guide may help you to decide if you are okay to do it yourself using the guidance within it, or if you should find someone more experienced.
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Posted By Michael Mowse
I light of reading some of the replies to postings on this forum, it is highly unlikely that any of them could call themselves a competent Person.
Mike
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Posted By JAI
Thanks mate
and of course you are! (are you a judge)
Jai
have a nice weekend
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Posted By Thomas Ripley
We all are. Come on this is not rocket science, if you have done the NEBOSH cert you are IT.!!
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Posted By John Murphy Diane, Visit the Department for communities web site at http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1162115 where you will find some very useful information about fire risk assessment. Interesting reference to a responsible person rather than a competent one. "The guides are designed so that a responsible person, with limited formal training or experience, should be able to carry out a fire risk assessment. If you read the guide and decide you are unable to apply the guidance then you should seek expert advice. More complex premises will probably need to be assessed by a person who has comprehensive training or experience in fire risk assessment. However these guides will be appropriate for more complex, multi-occupied buildings to address fire safety issues in individual occupancies". Regards John
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Posted By shaun mckeever
I have recently posted a copuple of questions for budding fire risk assessors to have a go at. The responses were a bit disappointing, yet the questions I posed are typical examples of what a fire risk assessor might come across. One question involved loss of an alternative means of escape the second question involved protection of external escape routes. It is OK for you people who say fire risk assessment is easy and for those that know what they are doing that is fine but I have seen some horrendous recommendations in some assesments. At the end of the day it is the firefighter who will be risking thier lives if it all goes pear shaped not the fire risk assessor, yet in most assessments I see firefighters are not even considered. Fire Risk Assessments are about life safety issues, in some cases multiple life safety such as the Rosepark incident mentioned earlier.
When I get back off holiday I will pose another typical fire risk assessment question. Any budding fire risk assessor should have a go. Hopefully it will be a useful exercise.
By the way, fire risk assessments are not required to be carried out by a competent person but by a responsible person.
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
Are there not parts of the fire risk assessment which require compartment walls to be idenitfied and the risk of fire spread on false ceilings etc?
Would think that unless you know these from building plans etc that these parts would require advice from someone who does.
I would have thought that the H&S Adviser can gather all this info similar to as they gather info on everything else when doing any risk assessments??
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Posted By Antony McManus
All, I thought we were looking for a description of a 'competent person'.
Get back to me and Ill send what I've got.
Tony Mc
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Posted By Stupendous Man
Diane,
There have been many threads around the subject of competence - most of them seem to degenerate into a slanging match and result in the following three scenarios:
Some Chartered members believe that only a Chartered member can be competent.
Some certificate holders (or even Managing Safely) think that they are competent.
An occasional, reasoned voice will say that competence is a mix of skills, knowledge, training, experience and knowing your limits.
You may indeed be competent in your organisation - it is just difficult to tell on the basis of a quick description in a message board posting.
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Definition of ‘competent person’
With respect to fire safety I prefer the definition a competent fire risk assessor given below:-
‘They have to have an understanding of fire, the way fire behaves, the way that building reacts to fire, so they can understand the risks that are created’
[DCFO Andy Marles, Deputy Chief Fire Officer, South Wales Fire and Rescue Services]
I would also add that a fire risk assessor must have an understanding of human behaviour and how people would respond in a fire situation.
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