Posted By Jim Walker Presumably these blokes will need their CSCS cards like everyone else and will not be able to get off the plane & start next day.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Hi All, May I say up front I am not a racist in any way and before you click off I am not going to bash foreign workers coming to the UK to work. On the contrary, most imigrants or as I prefer to call them fellow workers contribute gratly to the prosperity of our country. Brits have been going overseas to work for years in order to gain an advantage of one sort or another. Rant over now for my point. Whatever country or location a worker comes from is irrelevent as far as health and safety is concerned. the law of this land requires all employers etc to comply with the law laid down by the British Parliament. The HASAW Act plus other subordinate legislation requires all aspects of the workplace and the worker to be taken into account when addressing the prospect of risk including those with difficulty in understanding English. This means that the lack of good English or fear of being sacked for raising issues should not happen. I know there are some lousy employers out there who will take advantage of such people but this is illegal and must be stopped whenever it is discovered. As safety professionals it is the duty of us all to ensure that equal attention is given to all employees not just the good old Brit who to be quite honest is a lazy so and so at heart who grumbles that people from another country come here and take our jobs (I can hear the bigots now)when he is not prepared to do meanial takes himself. I work in an office with people from various parts of the world such as Austrailia, New Zealand, Poland, India/Packistan and Russia, and some of them do have different religions, Christian, Jew, Atheist and Muslim and this should not make any difference we owe them the safety duty of care whoever or whatever they are. Don't let the profession down or it will mean the profession being tainted with a very hard road back to respectability. So don't give fuel to those bigots who want to spread such beliefs. Bob.

Posted By Ian Mitchell Morning. Hope that my post has not been misinterpreted as I am in line with Bob S's thoughts regarding H+S being for everybody who works in the UK. I just wanted to make a warning and state that this IS an issue, it is going to grow rapidly, and it is up to us as IOSH members to address the issue professionally, recognise that it may not be an easy route to take, and avoid becoming ammunition for the bigots who see it as an easy way to bash Johnny Foreigner, without losing sight of the fact that a large scale influx of migrant workers will bring attitude and training problems by the score. I work also with Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Saudi Arabian, Iraqi, Indian, Ghanaian, Albanian etc. migrant operatives and I find it genuinely enjoyable and take great pleasure in suggesting places to visit and talking about life experiences in general - it will open your eyes to what genuine hardship is!! I have a good rapport, so my motives are to protect them and teach them their rights and duties. I do stand by my comments (PC or not) that such. workers ARE more likely to succumb to unscrupulous employers as they are so grateful for work. I have observed such sites where they are nearly 100% of the workforce. This means that it is essentially operating to East European standards!! This is a lot different to a site where 'Pawel' and 'Dariusz' are the only migrant workers, as they can be trained and can observe the UK safety culture first hand. The former sites have no precedence set.

Posted By Ian Mitchell Hi AJM, Regarding the good level of English. In this instance it is most certainly ethical and moral as it is a legitimate skill needed for the undertaking of a hazardous task. I have my employers place English 'speakers' (not necessarily English, and usually not!) in such positions. Stating a requirement for good English is the same as saying 'flexible', 'good PC skills', 'CSCS accredited' etc. If they said no Muslims or no homosexuals or something churlish like that then it is a totally different issue and not to be confused. I would be comfortable to state this to any PC-orientated busybody who tried to make any comparisons... Cheers Ian M

Posted By J Knight Ian and others, Saying that people from other countries are more likely to be exploited is nothing to do with 'PC', neither for nor against. Nothing at all. Where is the discrimination or racism in saying that people who are unfamiliar with the rules can be fleeced by cheats? And that's all in essence JayJay was saying. Agree entirely that HASAWA is blind to considerations of race, ethnicity or country of origin, and responsible employers should be mindful of the needs of the whole workforce. Also bear in mind that Reg 3 MHSR requires RAs to take 'groups' into account if they need special provision; this would include a duty to make sure that H&S information was presented in a comprehensible manner, John

Posted By AJM So trying to get a better understanding and taking my original question from my thread of; I was recently told by a someone that they take all nationalities but due to the hazardous nature of their environment they only allow them if they have a decent level of English. I am not sure of the ethics or legalities of that but maybe someone could enlighten me. And the reply of; Also bear in mind that Reg 3 MHSR requires RAs to take 'groups' into account if they need special provision; this would include a duty to make sure that H&S information was presented in a comprehensible manner, Surely If a company is doing as is advocated and only employing people with a good understanding of english due to the hazardous nature of their environment so they can read and understand safety signs and standard operating procedures etc. Then there is no need to worry about the reg 3 you spoke about John because the problem doesnt exist. So are we saying it is right to turn someone away from a job because they can not speak or read a decent level of english.

Posted By J Knight Hi Ian, Yes, I agree, this subject does need clear thinking and there's no doubt that that's what we're getting here. I supposed I just feel that we don't need to be shy about constructive discussion about this sort of thing; nobody has said anything which is remotely racist on this thread, so we don't need to apologise, John

Posted By Glyn Atkinson We are about to use some workers from Poland in one of our manufacturing areas, and part of the first employment contract with the contract labour supplier is that we will help with English lessons for the workers.They then, in turn, have an opportunity to integrate, and could move to permanent staff positions on completion of a suitable probationary period of work. In the interim, all necessary safety documents and training material are being translated so that safety and site inductions are completed to the satisfactory standard prior to work commencing in the production areas.

Posted By JayJay Thanks for all the replys ! i'd just had one of those days where everyone on site (english) wanted to know what I was going to do about it ?? It was just a case of 'Health & safety this' and 'Foreign workers that' so i just really wanted to guage if anyone else had had the same sort of things. I have enough trouble on site when i can't understand the english haha, then i come home and my partners a Mackem, but at least one good thing about Sunderland ! Their lower than my team Leicester in the League Thanks to All and have a good weekend JJ

Posted By Stephen A The scale and rate of migrant influx is very relevant. Certainly, if you take into account the Home Office underestimated Migration figures (by at least 800.000). It is clear a fluid reaction to H&S issues and communication has to be factored and it is healthy we have this debate. I know of Construction companies in Manchester that have compulsory English lessons during the working day, they have 2 in 'work time' and 1 after work during the week. The European Union grants funding for ESOL (English as a Second Language) courses, however these are over subscribed by a factor of 10! If a RIDDOR takes place and the person cannot speak English how do we capture information fully, or would the company be duty bound to employ the services of a professional Translator? Interesting debate Stephen

Posted By John Murgatroyd "To avoid confusion perhaps we should re-name the thread "Workers with difficulty communicating in English" as opposed to 'Foreign Workers'". I work with several persons who are English from birth. They mainly communicate in grunts. I sometimes wonder just how far up the evolutionary scale we are from apes.

Posted By Tony Brunskill All, I did notice that when the BBC news reported on this very subject earlier in the week they showed a group of workers on a roof. The access scaffold had no intermediate guard rail and the fall protection appeared "Iffy" to say the least. All as the reporter went on about standards not being allowed to drop!

Posted By AJM Too true Bob this really concerns me at times, hopefully the gangmaster legislation will sort some of it out. Because at times it seems like these agencies are just after how much money they can make no consideration for the people they are farming out. I sometimes feel like the people they are sending are like lemmings or lambs to the slaughter. This subject really does need taking seriously. Alan